Do you want to get great projects, with great clients, earning a great income? Today, Dov Gordon will give us access to his secrets for attracting first-rate clients, every time and every day. Dov helps consultants and experts get ideal clients, especially for the millions who are not the charismatic guru type. Dov can help you get great projects, with great clients, earning a great income.
Josh Fonger: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Work the System podcast, where we help entrepreneurs make more and work less using systems. And I'm your host, Josh Fonger. And today we have a special guest. We have Dov Gordon. Dov helps consultants and experts get ideal clients consistently.For the millions or not, the charismatic guru type of helps them get great projects with great clients and earn a great income. Dov, all right, I'm excited to have you on. You and I talked for a while before this and a few weeks ago and a few weeks before that. So for those who don't know, you want to give us the intro, tell us how you got started, this line of business and your background?
Dov Gordon: [00:00:38] Well, I I, well good to be here. All right. And I got started back in 2002.Not knowing what I was doing. Just knowing that I had a lot of skill. I knew I had like I wouldn't use a skill. I'll explain. There's a difference in talent and skill. I suppose I had some talent, but didn't have a lot of skill, I had a mentor at some point a few years later who pointed out different to me, Dov you know, you have talent, you need skill. That just really those like; like hitting me over the head with a block. I guess it was disappointing at the time, but it really helped me understand what I did. You know, what I was stuck on. So I had a lot of talent, I think I mean, at least ability in, you know, in terms of coaching, consulting, I knew I had a lot to offer. I'd been studying business since age 13, discovering the business and self-help sections and library. And I was trying to make it as in my early 20s as a coach and consultant. Having never had a real job. Something led me to figure out I could become a business coach. I took a two year long course in coaching.But you don't have to wait until you finish. I never even bother getting the certificate. I went to learn skills. I went to learn what I need to learn to start. And it did help me learn one or two basic frameworks that I did get get started with the next seven years were the first seven years were a real uphill slog. Had some good successes. Lots of bloody noses fell down many times. Pick myself back up trying to figure this out because I'm not the natural market or not the natural salesperson. But I do know that I have a certain valuable insight and perspective. But it just took a long time to figure out how to turn that into a business, how to turn it into the consistent flow of clients. And over time, I came to realize what that actually is. And I think I got to the point where I mean, I now I'm at the point where I'm helping other consultants and experts, professional service firm owners who are really good at what they do.They don't necessarily consider themselves natural marketers or salespeople. They're not interested and put themselves they're putting themselves out as a charismatic guru type. But they have a lot to offer. They've probably mastered their craft, or at least they're very good at it. They can offer a lot value to ideal clients. They care. They're not just looking to make a sale, they actually care about their clients getting to an improved situation.And we're just really able to help them simplify things and and create that simple and simple process, simple system that brings them ideal clients. And so here we are, work the system.
Josh Fonger: [00:03:07] So I want to drill into this a litte more. I don't meet people who are coaches and consults who've been to a longer than me very often. And you're one of those. And so as someone who's not a natural marketer and as someone who's not a you know, you would you wouldn't say you're a guru in your own space yet maybe under undercover guru. How did you survive those years? How did you survive and get clients? You know, at that young age?
Dov Gordon: [00:03:34] I just, you know, I guess tenacity. You know, I at some point I'd heard about the idea. I'd thought of the idea of bringing business owners together to learn from each other. And someone mentioned that that that was a thing I hadn't had and I didn't make that up. So I did some research and I found I came across the CEO peer groups. And I just to start one. The problem was, I don't even know what it was to have a business that was more than a million dollars. I don't know what it looked like. I didn't remember asking one of my early clients who had worked, who had been in business many years longer than me. I remember asking this question. I felt a little silly, but I asked him. I said, so how many ploys would a business have at million dollars have, in sales have? And he says, well, he was very nice. You know, because he he respected me for what I could bring. But he also knew where I was. He understood that. And he explained to me that it really depends on the business. And as soon as I heard that, I realized, well, that was not the most educated question. But thank you. I appreciate that. You know, you didn't make it so obvious an answer. Of course, it depends on the business, right? It could be, you know, one, two, three people or it could be, you know, many more people. So, so, so then I mean, his tenacity and eventually I was leading a CEO peer advisory group with CEOs of companies doing between 10 and 150, even 200 million dollars in sales. That meeting once every I think we've met 10 times a year over several years.I did manage to get my foot into some really good doors, people, other consultants. They were really surprised. How did you how did you get to the CEO of that company? How did you get in? How did you get. You had a meeting with them. And what I didn't really understand how to do it still was how to actually sell. So I was inviting them for one or two free meetings to try it. And then the goal being that they'd pay for an annual membership. But I wasn't charging enough. And then it could take months and months until they had their two trial meetings because oh, I'm come this time, but I can't come the next two times because I've had a board meeting or I'm traveling or whatever I'd be. And it was it was just too long sales cycle or too little money. I did get clients like projects from it, but it wasn't enough. It wasn't as much or as easy as I thought. And over time, I started to figure out what I was doing wrong. And as I started to have a little bit more success with that, I also also realized it was time to to shift my focus. And I did shift back in 2008, 2009, 2010. I forget exactly when it was offhand. The last 10 years or so I've been focused on working with on helping consultants who are good at what they do to get ideal clients consistently. And that's very much about doing less. More simplified and more relationships. The answer is not always in the online stuff.
Josh Fonger: [00:06:19] Ok. So what is that process? So let's just say you are coach consultant struggling. Is there like a sequence of things you should be doing on a consistent basis that that is your recipe?
Dov Gordon: [00:06:33] Well, I like to see more from how do we think about it? And then how to what to do. Because there are so many people out there telling us, we'll do this, do that, do that. The problem with that is that everybody's situation is a little bit different, sometimes very different. And if I'm following your recipe. I may not, this may not work so well for me. It's not like we're not talking about something as simple or as basic as flipping a light switch. You know, you say, hey, Dov, if you flip the switch like this, it goes on and I flip the switch. Great. It goes on. We're talking about skills that are more nuanced. They require practice. Right. Even leading a sales conversation. I can tell you what to do. But if I teach you, I could say say this. Here these scripts say these sell. Say these things in a sales conversation. But that will only get you so far. If I help you understand the thinking, understand what's why you say something like this, then I'm really giving you a gift. They really help you because that will stay with you forever. So rather than what to do. Let's start with what let's how do you think about it? And then I think a lot of the what to do will become clearer. So what I came to understand at some point was that.In order for my ideal client to go from total stranger. Never heard of me too happy to pay me. Well, and fairly for my my my coaching or consulting. They only answer, they ask and need answers to three questions. And if I can help them answer yes, yes and yes to those three questions in order. The order matters. Then they would happily pay me. And, you know, we talked about what's the purpose of a marketing funnel? What's the purpose of a marketing system? Right. Marketing and selling system. And most people will tell you what the purpose of the marketing funnel or system is to fill your pipeline with leads to close deals to get deal. And that's all true. But that's an oversimplified explanation because it doesn't help me know what to do next. And now you say, well, how do I build a marketing funnel and people rush to tactics. You do Facebook ad funnel to an evergreen webinar or go to podcasts or whatever it might be. AdSense, AdWords, SCO, blogging, tweeting, you know, Instagram, run straight to the tactics. But what's the deeper thinking underneath? And it's that you've whatever you're doing when it works, it's because you're leading your ideal clients to answer yes to these three questions in order. And when it doesn't work, it's because you're not. Or they're answering no. Because every tactic could work and every tactic could fail.Right. I mean, you've seen that, right? Yeah. Cold calling can work in. Cold calling could fail. Public speaking could work. And public speaking could fail. Facebook ads could work. And yet we see people pushing their favorite tactics as if everybody's got to do this or that or they're just not going to work. So first thing is really recognize it's not about the tactic. Tactics like a balloon. You know, if I had a red balloon and a blue balloon and the red balloon let go and it flies up the sky and the blue balloon let go and it falls down to the floor. You're not going to say red balloons fly and blue balloons fall. You're going to say, well, the red balloon probably had helium in it and the blue balloon must have been full your own hot air and you'd be right. Right. It's the same thing with the tactic of Facebook ads works. You don't say it's because Facebook ads works. And Linkin's ads don't. I mean everyone they all have their; because we see that Facebook ads can work for you not for me. Well, they are this time and not that time. Are you familiar with what I call marketing helium? So what is market helium? That's when I lay out these three questions and jump in anytime because I feel like I'm giving a speech.
Josh Fonger: [00:10:09] No, I don't. I'm waiting for these three questions. I'm waiting to write these things down for myself.
Dov Gordon: [00:10:14] All right. So the first question is, does that come across your ideal client, comes across your you your message, whatever it might be? And their first question is, should I pay attention? Is it interesting? That's what that pops through their brain. It's instantaneous. We're not really conscious of the thought. We're constantly asking that question all day. Should I pay attention? Is it interesting? The therefore, the first job of your marketing and selling system is to lead your ideal client when they come across your message. However, you're getting in front of them, whatever tactic it is that their brain should instantly think, well, yeah, that is interesting. As soon as their brain says we'll go. That is interesting. Instantly they have a second question and they would never think about the second question beforehand. But now they thought, that's interesting. Now instead they have a second question they want knows, well, can I trust you? Are you for real? What are you about? You got me interested, but who are you? Can I trust you? Are you for real? Some version of that. OK. And. Your job, the job of your marketing system. You're talking systems, work the system. I'm just making the connection for everybody. Make sure right. You build a system on top of these timeless principles. I'm sharing timeless principles like these are these are immovable truths in a wired deeply into our psychology. We need to build a system on top of that, because a system is like, I'm sorry that the principles are like gravity. Either you make it work with you or you break yourself against it. These questions are just as just as immovable. So we need to build a system that helps us leverage it as opposed to break ourselves against it. So the second question is; Who are you? Can I trust you? Are you for real? And then the job of your marketing and selling system is to lead them to answer. Yeah, I can trust you. Yeah. Interesting as that is. You just seem to be for real. You seem to actually care about me, not just try to make a sale. And you seem to really know your stuff. Ideally, what we're looking for is looking for people to come away from that part of your marketing system thinking. That makes a lot of sense. No one's ever talked to me about it that way before. I've never heard it expressed that way before. If you can do that, then naturally they're thinking now they have the third question, which is, is what you recommend, right for me? Is what you recommends right for me? And if they answer yes to the third question, congratulations, you have a new client, so let's say you have a booth at a conference. Right. So you're sponsoring your conference. You put up a booth. You know, you and I are walking through the conference and we're looking at the different booths and none of us are really in on them, really. We don't walk over to any of them. Then we see one and we see what it says of where we see their sign and our brains are asking, should I pay attention is interesting. And we look at each other. Let's go over to look at that one. Right. Because for some reason, our brains said yes to that one. As we walk over, we have a look. And what are we wondering and wondering, well, who are these people? Can we trust them? Are they are they for real? And as we learn a little more about them and we come to feel, yeah, we can't trust these people. We want to know, well, is what you recommend right for me? Right. Is it right for us? And if the answer is yes, then congratulations. They just made a sale. Right. So it's the same thing. It doesn't matter if it's a conference, if it's Facebook at everything. You know, if you come across a vending machine. Right. It's just that you go through those very quickly. Right. And also you have a lot of credibility because if it's a can of Coke, it's a can of Coke. You know what it is? You know, you're not worried about unless there's some reason to think this one might be different. So those are the three questions and. I suppose, like when we can give some more detail a little deeper into them.
Josh Fonger: [00:13:48] Well, I guess, let me run through, it lets us run through a scenario. So for all of the coaches and consultants and experts and speakers out there, let's say you kind of understand this framework. I love how simple it is. And I can already see how you could apply to, you know, networking meetings, to phone calls, to wherever it is. So let's say you say, OK, I got this now and you're going to go to a conference. You're going to be one of the guest speakers. There are some things you want to kind of prepare in advance to make this happen, because it seems simple. But how do how do you apply it?
Dov Gordon: [00:14:20] Ok. So the first question is that people are asking is, should I pay attention? Is it interesting? So we need to recognize that there are only two things that people are interested in. Right. You know, we'd like to think we'll ok that's tough. How do I get; How do I make people interested? And I was thinking about that long time ago, and I realized that while there actually are only two things that people are interested in, and that's this and this has been a light bulb moment for tens of thousands of people, maybe more by now. If I talk about a problem that you have and don't want. And or about a result you want and don't have. You'll be interested. I had a problem. They have and don't want result they want to have. That's how you get the attention and interest of your ideal client, because attention is not the same thing as interest. A lot of things will get your attention. But not a lot of things about your interest. If I send you a YouTube video of two dogs eating with a fork and a knife or some other whatever latest thing is, you might get your attention, you might watch it, but then you go back to what you're doing. So walking through that conference hall, you and there either a lot of things that got our attention, but only one booth got our interest. Interest means that we changed our plans. If you're scrolling through Facebook and there's an ad there, it might get your attention briefly. But if you keep scrolling, it did not get your interest, has to get your interest. If that ad, that booth is the sign over it. If that's talking about a problem I have and don't want and or talking about, a result that I want don't have. It'll get not just my attention but also get my interest and then we will change our plans and head in that direction. And that is the foundation of all marketing and sales. Doesn't matter which tactic of using without it, nothing will work. With it. anything will work. And that's why I call that marketing helium. That that insight. You've got to get that piece, that depth of insight into your ideal client. It's a lot harder than it sounds. It's not. So it's simple, but it's not easy to get to that depth of understanding. And I'll give a couple of examples, if you like, because a lot of people don't don't really understand why we think that we look, for example. I like to use this as example and I have some some other ones as well. But I had a client a number of years ago who is a leadership consultant. Right. And she was struggling because it's really hard to stand out as a leadership consultant. Everybody's a leadership consultant of some kind or another management consultant. Martin, whatever. Whatever they call themselves. Right. And I set out to make a list of all the problems you can help solve and the results that you can enable. All right. And then she made a list. I looked at the list and I said, there you go. That's your business. You can build your business on that one. I ignored all the others. Right. And I said, that's it. What was it? I don't know precisely how what she wrote, but what I helped her polish it into was I can help companies solve the problems they have with that employee who's too valuable to fire. Now, imagine my client and another leadership consultant. They're both at some networking event and they're both introduced to some ideal client of their; CEO of a five hundred billion dollar business. They definitely have leadership issues that there's always something that they need help with in terms of organization development. It's on it's they've got, you know, thousands of employees. And this ideal client is being nice and politely turns to them and he's not really expecting much, but he turns to one and says, well, what do you do? And she says, I'm a I'm a leadership consultant. And you think so? Yeah. We've cycled through several of you and then turns to my clients, ask services and what do you do? And she says, Well, I help companies solve the problems they have with that employee who's too valuable to fire. And I think you can feel the difference, can't you? You can feel the difference. It's not. Oh, interesting. Because if you're a company of one, you have an employee used valuable to fire. You know, nobody's indispensable. But there are a lot of people who can do a lot better if; we would rather not fire them. So that's that's just one example. I'll give you another example a number of years ago had someone on a webinar and his Web site. It said, as Web site, we saw dashboards and reports that help executives deliver better business results. So what problems to help solve? What result is unique, but we don't know. I don't know. It could be a hundred things. And now imagine his ideal client is Joe CEO, same guy $500 million a year business. He just spent millions of dollars on 5 million dollars putting in some new enterprise software program. And he's frustrated, wakes up in the morning and he's still feeling annoyed because it's been working with us for a few weeks. And I still can't get this data I need to make these difficult pricing decisions or whatever. He walks out his front door. Two scenarios. Scenario number one, on both scenarios, you have a billboard or billboard right opposite his front door. Right. Scenario number one, your billboard says we sell dashboards and reports that help executives deliver better business results.He's not going to notice it. He will not notice it because his brain is subconsciously asking, should I pay attention to this? Is it interesting? And Ringo's. No, no. He doesn't even notice. It walks to his car, drives to the office. Didn't even notice that your money is wasted. Second scenario, your billboard said, we help you get the data you need from that multi-million dollar information system so you can make difficult pricing decisions. So he's going to first pick his job off the floor because you've just entered the conversation going on in his mind with a precision that nobody else does and will address the specificity in a minute. And he's going to be on the phone with your company before his rear end hits the seat of his car. Again, you can feel the difference with the powerful messaging. Why is it so powerful? Because I'm speaking aloud; The problem he hasn't doesn't want, the result he wants and doesn't have. And most people are afraid to be that specific. Now, we may not know. That might be a bit of an extreme example. Right. But it makes the point. So, you know, I had a client who, a client who, a client, this business consulting.
Josh Fonger: [00:20:10] Well, I was going to ask you, how do you know how detailed to go? So I think that probably the back of people's mind is saying, well, my dashboard is actually solve these 10 problems.
Dov Gordon: [00:20:21] Exactly.
Josh Fonger: [00:20:22] I really want to say, hey, it just helps with pricing. And so would you recommend that case? Depends. Coming up with 10 different pages, 10 different billboards untagged your key problems to see which one does the best because you don't really know?
Dov Gordon: [00:20:38] Very good question and like you said, it really depends. There are different answers in different situations. It really depends. But here's the guideline was forget his name. But there's a guy well, he's quoted in a lot of direct marketing books. He said that good advertising enters the mind of the customer and enters a conversation going on the mind of the customer. Right. And I was thinking about that one day. And that's what led me to at least part of this is clarity here, and that is that. Well, what's the conversation going on in the mind of the ideal client? What is it? And it's I realize it. Well, we're all thinking about a problem that we have and don't want to endure. But some result we want don't have a change. You don't have an experience you don't have. It's for thinking about all that and the right level of specificity as it is to speak about it. The way I'm thinking it, because if you're too high, then I'm not going to notice you, because when you talk about dashboards and reports that helped me deliver better business results, I'm not thinking about it that way. So I'm not going to notice you if you're too specific and you're talking about, I don't know, pricing for companies that make X, Y, Z widgets. If I don't make X, Y, Z widgets, then I won't even notice it because even if it really could apply to what I do also. You said I'm saying. So we've got to figure out. That's why I want the reasons I say that is this is simple, but it's not always so easy.
Josh Fonger: [00:21:58] Well, I think this is, I'm taking a lot of notes, this is really great stuff. For those of you who are trying to get clients are seeing this or trying to think differently about your marketing. Let's let's jump on because of time. What's what's the. So let's dive in deeper on this. The second concept of can I trust you? Are you for real now? What? Are there certain components that would; I mean because, of course, you want to be trusted, What would you do?
Dov Gordon: [00:22:22] Yeah. Well, this is where you really need to present your expertise in a way that leaves people feeling, wow, that's interesting. Like I said before, you know, that's that's interesting. I haven't heard it. No one's really explained it to me quite like that. Now and now I get it. It's you've got to help people real if you sound like everybody else. Then the problem is that people assume that you are like everybody else. And just like all those others couldn't help me, I'm still stuck. And even though I tried this and that and worked this person and that person, I'm going to assume that you're like everybody else. Unless I come across you talking about the problem, I happen to want the result. I want I don't have in a way that I haven't heard before. Now, that's difficult. It's not impossible, but it's tricky because again, there's nothing new under the sun. However, nobody has your experience. And if you're good at what you do, then you've earned your right to an opinion and what you need to learn how to do is you need to learn how to share your experience because it's there may be nothing new under the sun in leadership consulting, let's say, OK, but it's your story in terms of like your experiences that enables you to talk about helping companies solve the problems they have with that employee who's too valuable to fire. And what you need to do is develop some of your, you know, your authority. If we can say, that around around that topic and you're right, your clients will be get their attention interests and and they're not going to think, oh, the only people that you can help me with are those that are too valuable to fire, you know the people I want to fire, but I'm afraid, too. They're not going to think that, they don't realize that. Well, you really get me. You understand me? That's the impact that you want. That leads them to feel, wow, yeah, I can trust you. Which is about both about you as a person as well as you as an expert. I can trust you because of the way you're presenting your ideas. Different from what I've heard. You've clearly thought this through. If I learn some ideas from somebody and we all learn ideas from somebody else. If I'm just copying them, mimicking them, pirating. Parroting. What's the word? What's the word?
Josh Fonger: [00:24:29] Parody?
Dov Gordon: [00:24:30] When you steal someone else; plagiarizing.
Josh Fonger: [00:24:32] Plagiarism.
Dov Gordon: [00:24:33] I have been plagiarized. So then if I'm just doing that, I haven't lived it. But if I learned an idea from somebody, then I'd live it. I earned the right to talk about it in my way. And most people who are. Who are expert at what they do, have lived it to some manner, which is why I know people who are just looking to figure out how long to go into this business because I going to make some money if they don't have either a passion for the game of sales or making money or passion for the core expertise. They have a really hard time and we see people like that who they can go year after year after year and not really get anywhere because they're they're not really into it. So that's. Yeah.
Josh Fonger: [00:25:18] So you build the trust. Now the last part you can get always the number three and still not get the sale. So what? What? So it matches the recommendation. Tell us about how we can actually apply it and maybe have an example of number three, how that happens.
Dov Gordon: [00:25:34] Well, is is what you recommend, right? For me, that's going to be some kind of sales, either a sales conversation 1 to 1 or a sales letter or a sales webinar or a sales presentation, a speech. Right? That's where sales comes in. And you need you know, you really had somebody message me on LinkedIn the other day and she was an e-mail subscriber as well. I don't remember exactly. But the shoes, she wanted to get some advice because she was applying for a grant for money to invest in her business. And turns out she has a certain expertise and she hadn't succeeded at selling it in her city and wanted to sell it online. I thought that she has money to invest in these ads or that. And I said, I want to know if that was something I could help her with. And I said, honestly, that's not what you need. I said, I'll be very blunt. But I think it's what you need to hear is that if you can't sell this in your own city to people, then you're going to have a much harder time selling it online unless the exception will be if they're if you live in a city where nobody needs this. But other people out there online need it. So it's the sales conversation. The way I talk about what I think about it is it's about how we talk about how to elegantly lead your next sales conversation. Sales is leadership and whether it's sales in print, salesmanship in print as they talk about it, call a sales letter or whether it's one to one. Sales is leadership. And that's the last question and people all is what you recommend, right, for me. You lead them through that conversation once one or through one to many vehicle. And in a way that leaves them feeling, wow, yeah. You understand me, you clearly know your stuff and what you recommend makes a lot of sense. So that leads them to say yes. And then they want to know how do we get started?
Josh Fonger: [00:27:24] So with an I'm looking at some of your other materials as you're giving these answers here, it seems like your specialty is really with people who are not the charismatic guru loud speaking. I guess that the people with megaphones. So is people who are have this kind of more even keel approach. Does this does approach work better? Would you say better or more effective? Or how does it compare with it without a megaphone, loud lot approach?
Dov Gordon: [00:27:53] Well, I think that these are really underlying principles that are happening in all those cases, both for the charismatic guru types that we all see visibly, as well as more of the what I think of as the under the radar industry leaders. That's really the approach that I take, the path that I lead people on, how to become an under the radar industry leader and create consistent flow of clients that way. Again, it's really both. It's just that they're different personalities. Maybe 10 percent of people are suitable to put themselves forward on a pedestal as. Hey. If you would just like me, then you'd also have this awesome, cool life again. People do it. It's not for everybody. For some people, it's the right thing, right? For others. We see a lot of people because of the Internet, because naturally that's what's most visible, but even before the Internet, I mean, that's just the way it is. That person out there will always get more than their fair share of attention because, you know, they have that personality. And I think that's fine. I'm not complaining about that. I just realized that the other 80, 90 percent of us also we need our own unfair advantage. We need our own way of standing out. And regardless of how you; what I found, I'll just answer your question. What I found is that there are ways of leveraging relationships. Like a lot of people, most of the business comes from relationships, but they're struggling because they don't have a way of making those referrals come predictably or they don't have a way of cultivating relationships predictably, or they're constantly thinking that, oh, obviously you're reaching out to people and starting relationships doesn't make any sense because everybody else says I need an online funnel, so I'm not. Obviously, I must not be doing it right, but very likely it could be the right way for you. Right. So it's also the principles are timeless. They're true. And they apply to the charismatic guru and to the, you know, the path of mastery, the under the radar industry leader. It's how you apply it. That would be different. It's the tactical approach that you take. That would be different. Well, in our case, we're all asking and answering the same questions.
Josh Fonger: [00:29:54] Yeah, well, I've got to. And let me know if you're running out of time. But I want to I want to ask this question. So why is it, because I teach I think, you know, I coach and teach a lot of consultants and coaches underneath me. And the work the system method. And I want them to get out there and get some clients. And there seems to be this fear of actually going to your your warm network, people who know you, friends, colleagues or business clients going to the warm network. And they would rather get a site and they'd rather do Facebook ads. They'd rather go to this totally cold market. And I'm letting them know that everyone they've ever worked with before knows them, is going to want to help them if they just reach out to them. Why? Why is there this concern? Maybe you've analyzes why people are afraid to do that?
Dov Gordon: [00:30:38] That's a really good question. I think that it's because they feel like they're asking for a favor instead of recognizing that they're bringing something valuable to those people. Even if I'm coming to somebody and asking for an introduction, part of that is because they don't have the words, they don't have what we call a simple, compelling head turning message. Maybe they do in your case. I don't know, because you guys do have some good messaging, right. I mean, even even just work the system. So but but maybe they don't recognize what they have. Maybe that's where it is. But they. If I'm going to, we all need to stand out. If I feel like I sound like everybody else, I'm not going to feel very good carrying this message. If I just say, well, I'm a leadership consultant, I'm a marketing consultant, I'm, you know, I have a marketing agency or whatever it is that you do, then, you know, you just don't feel like, you know, that you're not getting through with the words that you're using with the message you have. And it just feels so you feel uncomfortable with it. So I guess I'm not I'm not saying this is the answer in every case, but there probably is something to it is because very few people feel like they have a message. They're really that they really get excited about. They really feel like, well, that that represents me.
Josh Fonger: [00:31:51] Why don't you go long? I a long time with us and maybe we'll chat again some other time. Sure, I will. But before we go, what's one thing that I didn't ask you about what I should have you think our audience of small business owners needs to hear?
Dov Gordon: [00:32:07] You can go a long, long way. One thing you didn't ask me about it. Look, I think small business owners need to know that if nobody told you that it's gonna be really hard, then you need to know it's going to be hard. There are so many people who; who are out there telling us, oh, it's easy, it's not easy. Life is difficult. Running a business is is very difficult. And we do tend to get in our own way. We do do tend to make it more difficult. Ironically or paradoxically, the sooner we accept the fact that it is difficult, the easier it gets. As long as we think that it's going to be that it shouldn't be so hard or other people have it easier. They don't you just don't see it. They're not sharing it with you. They don't have it easier. They have something that's really a big challenge for them right now. So expect that it's going to be hard. And why? Why does expecting it. That's gonna be hard. Make it easier, by the way. I mean, I was his name. If the Road Less Traveled. Right? M. Scott Peck. So he has this. Hold on. Life is difficult. Have you ever read that?
Josh Fonger: [00:33:12] I've not read it.
Dov Gordon: [00:33:13] Okay. So it is sold tens of millions of copies of the Road Less Traveled. I read that the first 50 or 60 pages of the book, twice that ever could get past that. But those first 50 pages or so, it's a work of art. So this is the opening of his book. I just pulled it up on my computer. Life is difficult. This is a great truth. One of the greatest truths. It is a great truth because once we truly see this truth, we transcend it. Once we truly know that life is difficult. Once we truly understand and accept it, then life is no longer difficult. Because once it is accepted, the fact that life is difficult no longer matters. Now, here's what that means to me. My understanding of it, if I think that I'm going out for a walk in the woods, I might change my shoes and put on a pair of sneakers. But if I go out there and I discover that this is not a walk in the woods, I'm actually meant to be mountain climbing in the icy rain, that's gonna be really difficult. Ok, so if I know that I'm heading out to go mountain climbing in the icy rain, I'm going to wear boots. I'm going to wear. I don't know what you were in that situation because I'm not a mountain climber. But there's there are things I'm going to where there is some preparation I'm going to take. There's some tools I'm going to bring. There's I don't know what there's going to I'm going to bring everything I have. And because I bring everything I have, it'll still be hard. But it will not be as difficult as if all I shot with is sneakers. And that's why when you fully accept that life is difficult, business is difficult. You're going to bring everything you have. You're going to make sure that you have people trying to do this on their own. You've got coaching. We've got coaching. For some reason, coaches and consultants think that they should go to do it on their own, even though we're coming to other companies and saying, help. You can't. No. None of us can do it on our own. We all need help. None of us can do it. You cannot. It's too difficult to do it on your own. And the sooner you accept that, the sooner you blink, you're going to have to spend a lot more money on help than you think you can. Than you think you should have to get used to it. I mean, you haven't you haven't you probably invested in more, more.
Josh Fonger: [00:35:15] Yeah I have invested with you. I mean, I'm a reaping benfits,.
Dov Gordon: [00:35:18] Well, that's not a lot.
Josh Fonger: [00:35:18] It's been Great.
Dov Gordon: [00:35:22] I have. But most people have. And so I guess I mean, it's a long answer to your short question, but I think people need to know what it is. That way you show up when you show up prepared and then it's a lot easier.
Josh Fonger: [00:35:34] Now, I think that's a great that's a great insight and hopefully that's comforting. I got the exact same insight reading. Fifteen years ago I read this book called Happiness is a Serious Problem. Is it Dennis Prager book. Anyways, and the whole idea is that you'll be happy if your expectations are below what reality is. But as long as your expectations are amazing and your reality is down here, you're always that Delta. That difference is always going to lead to sadness. And so I don't know if I totally agree with this premise because basically you live a life as as well as you can, but have zero expectations and then you'll always have it's kind of a recipe for always being happy. It's interesting the thought and think you're kind of saying the same thing as this expect that's gonna be hard because it is. And then you you'll go into each day not like awe man I can't believe this happened. It's like, of course it's going to happen. This is life. Is you ready for it? So I liked it a lot. Well good, so Dov where can people find you and learn more about what you do and how you help, help other companies?
Dov Gordon: [00:36:41] Well, you know, I talked about becoming an under the reader, under the radar industry leader. And I put up a short it's two videos. First about a four minute video and then the next page, I think it's about 10 minutes a minute training on how to become an under the radar leader in your industry and a relationship based strategy of creating a consistent flow of ideal clients. And anyone want go get that. Dov Gordon dot net forward slash work the system in honor of work the system podcast. Right? Dov Gordon dot net forward slash work the system. And that's where it's really good. It's concise, focused and practical.
Josh Fonger: [00:37:20] Good. Everybody will make sure you check out the page Dov just recommended and make sure you stay tuned next week or make sure another expert like dough sharing with you their tips, their secrets, insights, their wisdom on how you can make more work less and improve your business. And also, if you found this helpful, leave review and then send us an image of that review to info at work the system dot com. Once a week, we give away a free copy of that book right there behind me, Work The system. Of course, you can download it for free at work the system dot com. But if you want a free copy mailed to you, we do mail out once a week. So just leave us review an email at info at work the system dot com. All right. Thanks Dov.
Dov Gordon: [00:38:00] Pleasure. And it is a good book. I read it a few years ago, long before I ever heard of you.
[00:38:05] Thank you. Thanks Dov.