In this episode, Ron Carucci — founder of organizational consultancy firm, Navalent — gives hard and fast advice on why leaders struggle to grow and scale without well-thought-out strategies.
- Strategizing for growth versus scale — and the distinction between the two
- What happens when leaders mistake revenue for viability
- The importance of creating dynamic leaders from below
Host: Josh Fonger
Guest: Ron Carucci
Josh: 00:01-00:50 Welcome to the Work the System podcast where we help entrepreneurs make more and work less using systems and I'm your host, Josh Fonger. Today we've got a special guest. We have Ron Carucci. Ron is the co-founder and managing partner at Navalent working with CEOs and executives pursuing transformational change for the organization's leaders and industries. He is the best-selling author of eight books. He led a 10 year longitudinal study on executive transition to find out why more than 50% of leaders fail within their first 18 months of deployment and covering the four differentiating capabilities that set successful leaders apart. Those findings are highlighted in his groundbreaking Amazon number one book rising to power and runs also a two times TEDx speaker. All right, Ron, welcome to the show.
Ron: 00:51-00:52 Josh. Great to be with you. Thanks for having me.
Josh: 00:53-01:01 Yeah, that's an amazing intro. All right, Ron. So I'm excited. Once you tell me the backstory, how did you get to where you are now as an expert in leadership?
Ron: 01:02-02:31 Gosh, so it's been a 35 year journey. And I spent most of my career, I began my career in a very different field. In my early 20s, realized that I was bored, and transition to you know, the Behavioral Sciences world came back, I was working in Europe for about three years, come back, the United States spent got my graduate degree in Psychology and realize that I love, you know, love being part of helping shape new stories for companies and leaders. But we also learned early on that doing that inside companies has a little bit of a political precariousness to it, this nasty habit of telling the truth. And sometimes companies don't want that. And so I realized that you know what, what gets me in trouble inside companies actually gets me paid by outside companies. They expect you to tell the truth, unvarnished. Lee when you're an outsider, so I realized I'm going to live out my passion for organizations. I'm going to have to be by not being part of one. And so began my career as a consultant. Joined a very large consulting firm in New York City and had a great experience there. And then 15 years ago, a couple of friends of mine and I figured out that it'd be a lot more fun to do this on our own. Then keep keeping, being asked to feed the dinosaur in a bigger firm. So our firm got acquired by a much bigger firm and then it stopped being fun. So 15 years ago, we launched Navalent and been on the joy ride ever since.
Josh: 02:32-02:48 Okay, well, I want to stay true to the title of this particular episode, which is, The three things that owners really need to do to grow their business. So what are those three things? What does it mean? If you have them kind a one of those things?
Ron: 02:49-11:14 Well, I mean, you know, I've worked with enough startup leaders and also mid cap leaders. Enough that the pattern is pretty clear. And you know, I love the title of your guys Work the System, because indeed, most leaders don't realize it as a system. Right? They are so intensely busy working in the organization of the head, they make no time to work on the organization. And so, you know, when I enter the story of an entrepreneur whose dreams have been dashed, or it's the classic, you know, you're a $100 million company trapped in the body of a $20 million organization. And you're like, the teenage boy and his dad suit, you didn't grow up. And so now that you can have seems ripping of the organization, and most founding entrepreneurs think, look how excited everybody is, with all this energy. And I decided a little bit again, they're actually tortured. This is not fun for anybody. So my very first question is what. Tell me your strategy, tell me who you are, and why you're here. And I get every possible counterfeit there is to a strategy, I get the mission and vision values, I get the business plan, we used to get our Series B funding, I get the product quarter for the year, I get the order from Costco, Costco call back strategy, I get some counterfeit document that, that tells me who you are. But it doesn't tell me anything like that. And so when I asked, this is all very interesting, because we know nothing about who you are. Tell me why somebody would pick you over somebody else up the street doing what you do. Tell me why you are better than them and why you have the right to win doing what you do. And then I get a blank stare. And so when you can't answer for me who you are, in terms of why a customer who was going to write a check to you versus somebody else, and you can't tell me what customers shouldn't pick you. You have no strategy. And that is usually the beginning of mayhem. An entrepreneur had a great idea, they had a great product, they got a patent, they have a great service, and they wrote a book. And suddenly, the market seems to be rewarding them with a lot of revenue, and they confuse that as viability. And it's not. And so the first thing that we do have to do is get very clear on the swim lane, you're swimming in clear on what differentiates you from what you have to be good at, more than anybody else doing what you do. It's rare that we all every entrepreneur wants to believe there's nobody like me, I'm the uber of. But the reality is, differentiation is much harder these days, that the barrier to entry in most businesses is much lower. And if you can't be very clear on what customer you serve, how much value you can capture from that customer, why they should pay you why they should keep repeating to use you, and why you're going to protect them from leaving to go to somebody else, then you really you know, and it's always interesting to me, Josh is when entrepreneurs or founders say a word, that strategy steps to a big companies, were only 20 to 30 million, we're not ready for that we're only 5 million, we're not ready for strategy stuff, which is, of course, incredibly dangerous assumption. You need it more than anybody when you're younger, doesn't mean you know what, when a lot of startup leaders say things like, well, we haven't figured it out yet. We're still fine tuning it, that's fine. But doesn't mean you have to boil the ocean, you still can have some parameters around who you are and how you compete, and how you win. And it's astounding how many founders and company leaders don't. So let's assume that you have figured out who you are, let's assume you figured out the basis of competition, you know why you win, you have a, you have more than just ambition, ambition, values, and that nobody really cares about anyway. But you are really clear on who you are and who you serve. Now, the next question is one of organization. Well, what's the work? So many entrepreneurs want their market to reward them and they hit, they get some tailwind, they just are hiring. You know, and they probably declare, we've gone from 50 employees to 500 employees. And right, what are they all doing? You know, and it's like the ant and farm people just running around. And the problem is people just have bolting on bodies to deal with the capacity constraints, they suddenly feel when money starts coming in the door. And that's the first point in which they confuse growth and scaling. Growth is top line revenues coming in. But if your cost structure is growing at the same rate, as your, your top line, it's not scaling, and they have not taken the time to work on the organization. Many leaders don't step back your eyes. If you haven't defined what differentiates you, all your work looks the same. So and all work is not the same, right? So there are three types of work. You have in your organization, one is your competitive work. That's the work that, you know, if you put $1 investment in that work, five hours comes in the door, it's the work that makes you special, it's the work that directly ties to differentiate you. So if you're differentiated on your service, people who are facing your customers are competitive work, if you're differentiated on your quality of your product, your operations, people are going to be competitive. And that's about 15% of the work in your organization. The next body of work is what we call competitive enabling, it's the support systems and processes that directly support the competitive work. Also about 15 to 20% of your work, the rest of the work 50 to 60% of the work is what we call unnecessary, keeps the lights on, keeps you out of jail, keeps you in compliance, you don't get paid to do it better than anybody else, if to do it on party, but it's the work that is just there to do. Problem is when you mix all the work up, and necessary work gets mixed up with competitive work, we know what happens, right? The necessary work feels more urgent. It's today's work, the competitive work never gets done. The people who are trying to do both don't understand the difference. And the tradeoffs they're making are in favor of the necessary work because it's usually shorter term deadlines. And it's more satisfying to do. So now, if I have no identity, now I've got a bunch of people doing a bunch of activities, I have no idea which is more valuable than others. And leaders are so afraid, they create this false sense of egalitarian around we're all in this together. And that's great as human beings, God, I will equal, but the work is not. And if you try treating all jobs and work as equal, you're going to confuse people because all the work is not the same. People doing your accounting work, your payroll work, your work, nice people, good people that work is not the same as the work of delivering the value of customers. Let's say we get past that, let's say we are about to start the workout, we're about to put boundaries around the competitive work and protect it and figure out how to scale it faster to deliver on our strategy. Now the issue is leadership, who's gonna lead all this work. And so often you have this major hub and spoke reality, I have a CEO right now of a $400 million company, a family owned business started by himself. And all decision pathways lead to him at $350 million. That's dangerous, right? Because everybody's just looking up. And so if you have not distributed leadership, distributed decision rights, distributed governance, and distributed other people to be able to embody the leadership of that work. Beyond you, you are presiding over your own demise, and many founders do which is your identity has become so closely tied to this thing that your own egos need to be indispensable is being met while you're suffocating your company. So if you have not created leaders beneath you who are prepared to lead a beyond, you are prepared to bring ideas and thoughts to improve your organization to make it more efficient to make it more creative, that are not dependent on you to lead, then you have just put a stake in the ground, limiting how far you can grow. And you've probably grown way beyond that to this point. And that's probably why you see turnover, you're seeing customer defection, you're seeing cost hemorrhaging that you mysteriously can't explain. People are checked out in meetings, when you ask questions, people just give you blank stares. And you're having you're now the answer ATM, having to sort of identify and solve all the problems. So clear strategy, well-built organization, skilled and distributed leadership. Those are the three things that make companies scalable and grow successfully. And they're often not the things most business owners are thinking about working on.
Josh: 11:15-11:40 No, this is really good. Taking lots of notes here. So with a, you mentioned some larger size companies, you know, 5 million 20 million, 50, 100. Do these same principles apply to small companies, let's just say that you own an air conditioning, install and repair company doing a million dollars a year. Do these things matter or you're not big enough to worry about these things?
Ron: 11:41-14:49 Great question, Josh. They matter even more. Because now if I only have seven employees, that means my bow to distribute the work. Right? Is even more so, so yes, you're gonna have people whose roles are you know, I'm Bill and I'm a whole department in the entire customer service department. Okay, but if the reason people are calling you to repair technicians is because you're reliable and your service is good. And you're charging more for that. When Bill answers the phone it 'd be an incredible experience. If you're somebody who's known for your incredible technical skill, we had a guy here for repairing that AC work here. And I googled it. I literally googled his name before he got here to look at our unit. And he turns out he was like an air conditioning guru. And we were looking to have the system replaced here. We were told the building couldn't handle a certain kind of unit and we were looking to do a very expensive thing. And he's like, that's really a lot of money. Why don't you just do this? And I'm like, oh, well, I was told we can't do this. Let me look at your system. He walked down into the bowels of the building like I can do it. You know? So it's no matter how far, how small or how many employees you have, you have to think about, you know, if you go to the proverbial Google, air conditioners, repair people and installers in Scottsdale, Arizona, I'm going to get eight pages of suppliers. And just because you're paying for Google ads to put you on page one doesn't mean you're the best one. So we can always rely on referrals. And that's all great. But, why don't customers call you and call you, if you don't want the person saying, You're 40 bucks an hour, that's so much money I don't want you know, then that's probably for the person who's gonna charge 30 bucks an hour. You don't want that customer because you know, they're going to be a pain in your butt. And we're going to be calling you every 20 minutes, with every possible thing you did wrong, and you scuff on the floor and come back and wipe it up, that's not for you. But if you don't know that about yourself, and you haven't done the things to help the customers who don't care about your rate, they just care about the system being quality installed and repaired. How do people know to call you for that? How did the right customers know that you're the premium provider but that's get what you paid for. So it applies to everybody. The problem is the person who owns that business with eight employees is the one out doing all the calls, is the one paying the bills, is the one repairing the ACS is not training other journeyman to know how to do it is not teaching people how to they want the customers interacted with, is not taking the time to actually put in muscle underneath them. You know what Josh, even plastisol printers, most solopreneurs think that they actually are solid, whenever there's no such thing as a solopreneur. You have somebody do your website, if somebody's doing your business cards, you have somebody, and you know, booking you on podcasts, you have a team, they may not be employees on a payroll, but you have a team. And if you don't treat those people as your team, you're the guy with all that play spinning in the air. And you're the one dependent on all of it. And for about 20 minutes, that feels exhilarating. You know, I'm not working for the man anymore. I got my own business, and then about 30 minutes, and you're like, I'm freaking exhausting. I can't do it all.
Josh: 14:50-15:26 Well, this is a, I think you're speaking to everybody listening right now. So let's just switch the scenario from a load from a blue collar, physical business to online business. Let's say you have an online marketing company. And you're hearing this right now you're thinking okay, so competitive work is 15%. Competitive enabling work is 15%. And the necessary work is 15%. And your company is all about doing. Let's just say you do advertise digital advertising. So you do Facebook ads and social media advertising? What would that look like? How do you think it would actually show?
Ron: 15:27-20:59 So, just to be clear, necessarily, it's about 50 to 60%. Right? That's the bulk of it. That's, 15-15 to 20-60? It's the best answer. So here's the thing about digital marketing. And you may have hit a nerve here. But we all are tired of getting LinkedIn ads or LinkedIn messenger ads 10 a week, Ron, I can increase your leads, I can create your content marketing, you know, let me I can we guarantee our clients a consistent set of generated qualified, you know, inbound inquiries, but we are our processes proven no one else does it? And, you know, a couple of times, I'm like, Okay, I'll take that. I'm just curious, you know, no, content marketing, and we optimize your SEO and I mean, like, okay, you think you're different, but I have 20 notes that could have been cut and paste just like yours. And all I just see them and I get irritated. I mean, I really want to talk to you. But a couple of month and a half ago, somebody retargeted me so they put the cookie on and I got retargeted. I got an obnoxious email, like you don't know what you're doing. I've been watching you and you could be so much better than you are. Let me show you. We haven't marketed a small digital marketing firm that works with Navalent. We've been you know, it's not no means is it Napa districts. This is not our forte and it shows up but we're trying, I'm like, okay, I just want to be obnoxious here somewhere like okay, here's what we're already doing. Here, we have an email list. We have SEO optimized. I write for Forbes I read for some of the most Premier, you know, so my Google authority ratings are off the charts. I know what that means. Here's how we manage our list, we're targeting campaigns that aren't doing nurture campaigns because everything we do. You think that you bet back tell me that you do all those things and you do better than anybody else. And I didn't even know if they were. So now that I've told you everything we're doing, what can you tell me that I'm not doing things that you think you can improve on. Because if you say this, I'll give you 10, I'll give you the 10 minute phone call you're asking for. I get almost a 10 minute phone call thinking, I'm going to just be a pain in his ass. I'm gonna be his worst nightmare just to show him how his obnoxiousness triggered. You know, its cause and effect here. And dad, come Josh, if you didn't come on, so I'm on your side, here's the analytics I did on your site. And I know what all analytical tools are. But these were all analytical tools I'd not heard of producing data I had not seen before from my current marketing firm. And the current mock me, digital marketing means about 100 things, right? Everything from content all the way to the technology. And the firm we were working with was more on the content side, not on the technology side. This firm has roots in technology and SEO and all the SME and all that stuff. And he said, here's six things you're not, you're actually not doing. And here are some problems with my gosh. And I went back about what was it about a doctor's email that he said, when I get 20 of those a week, literally, that got me to sort of even obnoxiously and as a dispatcher engage him. Because it was always something because we hired them. Well, we fired our other firm, who we were struggling with, because they were not delivering some of the technology results we wanted and hired them. So I will tell you as I went back, and compared I had watched one of the owners videos, I looked at some of their custom customer testimonials. And in fact, they were a much higher caliber, far more technologically sophisticated than some of the other providers. How did that get into me? I don't know. But I was drawn to it because I've long as a firm had questions we haven't gotten technical answers to becomes hard. And I know I'm not, that's not my expertise. But I knew there had to be answers somewhere. We just weren't getting them. Well, here's this firm, as part of their sales call, gave us more answers than we'd had from another firm. So all at this, and this is not a big company. They've been around for a while, but there's you know, 10-20 people, whatever. They're all over the world, they have lots of outsourced technology people. So, the odd thing to say your question is when you're highly commoditized. And especially when you're offering a service that people don't know about, so you're intimidating. People are assuming you're going to take advantage of them. Or they have enough knowledge to be dangerous about what you do. And you have to undo their assumptions to win their trust. You better if you think you do all digital marketing end to end soup to nuts do it all, then you're stupid. Because you can't. So figure out on that broad buffet of ways people tell their digital story. Figure out which five activities you want to major in and go deep on those and own them. Recognize you're talking to people who are confused by it, scared of it, intimidated by it, and don't trust you, before you even start anything. You're obnoxious. Over promising LinkedIn messages are not a way to win people's trust.
Josh: 21:00-21:28 So, then, if you have this, and that's an amazing story, how they got their foot in the door. I'm really bad at LinkedIn messages. I think I have 1000 that I haven't actually read yet. And, eventually I'll get to them. But that firm that you're working with, and maybe they're a bad example for this, but what portion of their weekly work is necessary work? What portion is competitive enabling work? And what portion is the competitive work? Like? How did they come?
Ron: 21:29-26:38 So here's what the competitive work is, their roots were in technology, right? So I think that they're actually not there, maybe about 8 or 10 years old. But their origins are technology and they have a built, you know, Google changes rules everyday. You know, the algorithms change everyday? How people are able to, you know, so for people in professional services firms, right? There are so many out there who don't even believe decision makers are on the internet used to be, you know, word of mouth or referral or your ideas. Now, there's not an executive or the person they've assigned to go to this, making a decision about help. That's not going through the internet. If you're not on the pathway, you can be sure you won't get picked, right? Now, if you're not on page one or two, you're not gonna get picked. Well, what are the optimal ways you technologically have to get there? Right. So, you know, we would optimize I mean, I write a lot of content, we optimize it for SEO. You know, after making sure the content was crisp and clear and well-articulated. These guys start with SEO and shape the content from your back, it's a much more radical look at, you know, which is basically what CNN does, if you're walking to CNN, all the journalists are sitting on a big board, and looking at the words that are trending on top search today, and if they're writing an article about Trump, but what's trending is apple pie, rest assured, there's gonna be where apple pie and article by Trump. And they're just sitting there writing their content based on what you know, it has nothing to do with the content at all. No, it has to, it has to be good content, it has to be relevant and useful, and meaningful and differentiated. Google will punish you if it's not differentiated. So all I have to say is the technology of digital marketing, forget about the artistry of it, or the service aspect of it, or the creativity of it. That's not their thing. Right? The other firm that we've worked with for years and had, you know, they did their thing, but we had to say goodbye to them was all about the creativity and the artistry and the content. That was their thing. Now, they all say they do it all the time. And they probably have enough things to dabble in it, but never to a naked consumer who doesn't understand how they work together, how they fit together, it's, you know, it's no different in my business, right? Everybody, their mother and their sister is a coach today. They went to JC Penney's, or target and got a coaching certification. And now they call themselves a coach. I have 35 years of doing deep orange psychology work with executives all over the world. When I walk into a CEOs office who's running a $3 billion company, and he or she says to me, well, the woman that was just in here is only 400 bucks an hour, why are you so much money? I already know you're the wrong client for me. I'm like, you know what, hire her. Go ahead in a year, call me she'll have ruined your business. And I'll charge you more. But go ahead, work with her because I'm clearly not the right person for you. But to her, it's our job as coaches. Don't you just give advice. And so it really is all the same to them. So it's just it's no different for me than it is a digital marketer. If I had not been able to help you understand that I can solve your problem that I understand your issues that I thought about the challenges you have, and I saw them 1000 times. You know, if you're having a chest pain, a really really sharp pain in your chest. You're not going to Google Groupon for a stint? You're not going to call the cardiologist say, hey, have any specials this week on open heart surgery? You want the surgeon to have done it 20,000 times. And if you walk into that cardiologist and you say I get this pain right here, it's really sharp. And the cardiologist goes, oh, you need a catheter, and they also put one in, and you're like, well, don't you want to like do an X ray, or? No, I don't know. What was the time I knew what it is, you're gonna run. But if you but if you're in pain, and someone's making you up, I can have it. I can have that pain in three days. You want to hear that? So, you know, when you don't know how to differentiate from among the gazillions of players doing what you do? Or worse. I think part of Natalie's challenges, we assumed we were so different, that it was obvious. You know, people well, where they were, they're like the Rolls Royce job, or development? People know that we're not, we're not that. Really why? Because we would like them to know. Because we think we're all that a bag of chips. Doesn’t work that way. So I think to the person who's got a very small but very commoditized and misunderstood business, you're the hardest competitive challenge of all, setting yourself apart from the 8 other million people doing what and that's probably not an exaggerated number. There probably are 8 million digital marketers out there. There are certainly 8 million coaches out there, or leadership consultants out there. And how do you get people to pick you over the other ones? It's a form of professional torture relates to that question.
Josh: 26:39-26:58 So, you're gonna fail for sure. If you don't have a strategy, you're gonna fail for sure if you don't actually have to work properly. The last piece just because the timeframe was short, you had a whole thing on leadership. So for those who want to grow, and distribute their leadership, what are some tips they should take protect?
Ron: 26:59-31:08 So, I'll go back to the thing you mentioned about from our research, we get a Kenya study to understand why are these leaders you know, people who are otherwise seen as phenomenal and talented suddenly flaming out when they get to bigger jobs. And when there are lots of landmines in the way, the great thing about the research is that we were also able to flip the script and say, well, what are the other half doing? If half of them are actually sticking the landing when they get to bigger roles and thriving how to do it and they were for? The first one was context. These will be those who are curious, they could read the tea leaves, they could see patterns coming. They didn't impose change before they adapted themselves. They didn't come in with some mandate going, I'm here to fix you. Or I know the problem. And it's not me. But they would, they would ask questions, they studied the landscape, they had anthropological instincts. So if a digital marketer, if suddenly the phone stopped ringing, that they're not going to just push the same level harder within it, what's changed out there? And how do I, what's the context of digital marketing, and the other 18 people and what's happening before I make a choice, the second one was, breathe, so many leaders grew up in a specific discipline. So if you've gone through marketing, you see the world through consumers, if you go through technology, you see the world through, you know, search engines, if you grew up in a financial city, well, economically, and those biases narrowed how you view the world. So to the title of your book of giving away, you don't see a system, you see a piece of a system, and you forget that the system is more than the sum of its parts. Breathe means you know how the parts fit together. Breath means you see systemically you bridge the gaps. So where there are seams between your customer service rep. I mean, there was an air conditioning supply company out there, whose service reps in the field, don't argue with people in the office trying to schedule them. Right, that's a seen? Well, if you haven't stitched that seemed to work more effectively with an app with technology with some governance process that was going to change. More service reps, and you had more Tech's you increase the same problem. So breath means stitching machines they want is their choice. Leaders can make hard calls. Leadership is the ability to disappoint people at a rate that can absorb. You have to be able to say no, you have to be able to disappoint people in the service of commitment you make, but many leaders don't want to, they want to be benevolent dictators, they want to be loved going to be popular, they want to look like they're Santa Claus. So they feel that way too many yeses. They don't hold anyone accountable. Great leaders can hold politeness and make hard choices. And the last one is connection, the relationship piece of it. These were the leaders in the study day, whether it was above them, sideways or below them had phenomenal relationships, everybody said, every company has the one that everybody wants to work for, everybody wants to learn from them, you just want to be in their presence because you feel better about yourself. And the interesting thing about these leaders was that they prioritized their relationships, not according to who they needed things from a network, but who they could contribute to. They prioritize who they spend time with, according to who could make them more successful. So context breath choice connection. The hard part about the study, Josh, was that the successful leaders were glitter ball for them. And we cut we did 99 different regression analyses to so because that was like I'm not saying that wants to say that. But the reality the researchers probably conducted said Ron is not going to change, which means that if you are good at three of the four of these, you were in the failure group. And that was it, I was like, I don't want to, I have to say that. But here's the upside is the upside news, Josh, they can all be learned. The time to learn them. It's not after you get your first big job. It'll be time to start learning content, getting contextual intelligence and reading tea leaves. Time to start building bridges across divides the time to start making hard calls. And investing in other people's success is like yesterday. And you can all build those muscles effectively. And then when you get your first big job, you're not prepared for it. If you get your first vice president job or start your first business and hire your first 20 employees, and then start working on those skills in front of them. That's going to be a little bit more of a bumpy ride.
Josh: 31:09-31:20 So, start growing them now. Because you're already behind, and if you're missing one, don't think you can forego, like, I'll do all these things, but I'll just forget connection.
Ron: 31:21 That’s a good strategy.
Josh: 31:22-31:29 That’s great. That's great advice. What's one question? I didn't ask you, but I should ask you?
Ron: 31:30-31:51 We've covered a lot of ground Josh, I wish you had asked. I don't know what I wish you the best. I don't know that I have. I mean, we cover the things I wanted to cover. So I don't know. Is there another question that I used?
Josh: 31:52-32:01 Though, there's one more that I want to make sure I ask which is where people can find you. If they want to find more information? Or any other books are this this new bestseller? Where can people find out more?
Ron: 32:02-32:38 Power is the book that those traits are documented in. So come visit us at Navalent. N-A-V-A-L-E-N-T dot com. We've got a great set of videos and articles and all kinds of great content on leadership and teams and organizations to find their you can if we if you're leading some massive transformation in your organization of trying to we have a free eBook for you, you can come to Navalent dot com slash transformation, and download that free eBook. You can also find me on Twitter at Ron Carucci and on LinkedIn as well. So let's keep chatting.
Josh: 32:39-33:33 Good. This has been great Ron, I appreciate this. And it's made me think about my own business. And I'm sure everyone watching this has been challenged as well. So thanks for sharing your wisdom. And an amazing study. That's pretty amazing, you pull it off. And everybody thanks for watching the live stream or watching this on iTunes or YouTube or wherever else it was put on this LinkedIn. Stay tuned. Next, we're gonna be leaving another podcast with an expert just like Ron, or maybe one of my previous clients or my coach or consultants, I'll teach you how you can grow your business so you can make more and work less. And if you want a copy of that book, or that behind me Work the System. You can get a copy at Work the System dot com. Or you can leave us a review and take an image, take a picture of that review and email it to [email protected] Once a week we grab a name out of a hat and mail out a free copy and it could be you. Otherwise we'll see you next week. Thanks everybody.