There’s a point in every scaling business when hiring becomes unavoidable. While fruitful hiring can lead to happy partnerships, where both employer and employee grow together, poor hires waste time, money, and team morale.
In this episode, Nathan Hirsch—remote hiring and ecommerce guru—breaks down the steps to a more productive remote hiring process.
After selling his thriving freelance job marketplace, FreeUp, Nathan dedicated his time and acumen to coaching businesses on how to properly and effectively outsource staff. Through his newest venture, OutsourceSchool, Nathan teaches practical techniques on how to build teams, meet targets, and scale harmoniously.
Speaking on systemization of the hiring process and a keen eye on establishing expectations early, Nathan advises listeners to hire candidates based on their skill, attitude, and communication style.
Nathan reminds us that team management doesn’t stop with hiring, and coaches listeners into gaining an empathetic understanding of their staff to best manage both parties’ needs over the course of the relationship.
In this episode we discuss:
- Why it’s vital to systemize rock-solid hiring processes
- How to set and manage expectations for better longevity and efficiency with your remote team
- Common mistakes businesses make when outsourcing or hiring remotely
Josh: 00:00-00:48 Welcome to the Work the System podcast, where we help entrepreneurs make more and work less using systems. And I'm your host, Josh Fonger And today we have a special guest we have Nathan Hirsch. Nathan is entrepreneur and expert in remote hiring and e-commerce. Most recently, co-founded of free up.com in 2015, with an initial $5,000 investment, scaled it to 12 million per year in revenue, and was then acquired in 2019. Today, Nathan is a co-founder of outsource school, a company working to educate entrepreneurs on how to effectively hire and scale with virtual assistance through in depth courses. Anything has appeared in 300 plus podcasts is a social media personality and loves hearing advice on scaling, remote businesses. All right, Nathan. Well, welcome to the show.
Nathan: 00:49-00:52 Yeah, it's fine. I mean, scaling businesses hiring. It's all stuff I'm very passionate about. So, it should be fun.
Josh: 00:53-01:02 Okay, awesome. All right. So why don't you give us the backstory, those of you who never heard of you, how did you get into this line of work and what is the story that led you to here?
Nathan: 01:03-06:17 Yeah, so growing up my parents were both teachers and I grew up thinking that I was going to get a real job, graduate college work for 30 years retire, and that was going to be my life. And when I was growing up, my parents always made me have these 40 hour week internships, jobs during the summer, winter breaks, and I did everything I learned customer service sales, managing people, and I learned how much I just hated working for someone else. I hated having a boss. I hated watching the clock every day and driving into work. And I kind of looked at it as a glimpse beyond college and it was kind of Oh my god, like that's, that's what my life's gonna be like for the next 30 years if I go down that route, so when I graduated, or when I got to college, I looked at college as a ticking clock. I had four years to start my own business and decide my own destiny, or I was going to the real world and having bills and responsibilities and never looking back. So, I started hustling. I competed with my school bookstore. I offered more money than them for textbooks. I took the few thousand dollars I made in those summer jobs and created a little referral program where people would make money by telling their friends. Well, all of a sudden there's lines out my door of people trying to sell me their books, to the point where I get a cease and desist letter from my college telling me to knock it off because I was stealing too much of their business. So that was my first glimpse into being an entrepreneur. And I mentioned my parents were both teachers getting kicked out of college would not have gone over well, so I had to pivot pretty hard. And I had sold some books on Amazon and this was 2008. No one knew what Amazon was. There were no courses, no gurus, being an Amazon seller wasn't a thing. And I thought it was so cool. I could have this 24/7 storefront and I said to figure out what to sell besides books. So, I started experimenting, and I try things. I'm familiar with video games, computer, sporting equipment, outdoor supplies, college guy stuff, and I just fail over and over and over. And it's not until I branch out my comfort zone and come across the baby product industry, then I start getting sales. So, if you can imagine me as a 20 year old single college guy with more hair, selling a million dollars of baby products on Amazon, that was me. And this was crazy. I was an entrepreneur, I was having success and, and I'm making money for the first time. So my parents tell me, I should probably pay taxes. So I meet with an accountant. And the first question he asked me is, when are you going to hire your first person? And I kind of shrugged him off, like, why would I do that? That's money out of my pocket, they're gonna steal my ideas. They're not gonna do as good job as me. Pretty standard entrepreneurial excuses that a lot of people have. And he just laughed in my face. And he said, you're going to learn this lesson on your own. So sure enough, my first busy season comes around the fourth quarter right before Christmas. People are buying toys, people buying baby products, and I just get destroyed. I'm doing everything I'm answering every email, filling every order, repricing every product, listing every product, there's no Amazon software back then. And I'm working 20 hours a day, my social life plummets, my grades go down, I'm miserable, I'm stressed. And I work my butt off for eight weeks to get through the holiday season. And when I get to January, I think to myself, man, I can never let that happen again. I need to start hiring people right now. So, I'm 20 what do I know about hiring? I post a job on Facebook. This guy in my business law class messaged me says, hey, I don't know what you do. I need a job. And I just hire him on the spot. I don't even interview. I actually almost fire him the first day because he calls me an hour before his shift and says, hey, by the way, I don't have a car can you pick me up and bring me to your house? So, this guy, this guy from my class, I don't really know ends up being an unbelievable hire. He's smart. He's hard working. We have the same values have the same entrepreneurial ambitions very different skill sets, and he eventually becomes my business partner, Connor, and he's been working with me for 10 plus years. So, I just hit the jackpot, right and there I am thinking, man, this hiring thing is easy. you post your jobs, someone shows up, you make more money, your life becomes easier. It's that simple. And I proceed to just make bad hire after bad hire after bad hire wasting a ton of time ton of money learning college kids, not very reliable. And those are really the only people around me. So, I eventually turned to the remote hiring world, the Upwork, so Fiverr and I hire some pretty good people, but I hate the process. I hate posting a job getting 100 applicants interviewing them one by one. I hate that if someone quits, I just started all over again. And I kept looking and looking for something faster, something better. And when I couldn't find it, I really built it myself. And that's where free up became a marketplace where people get or we get thousands of applicants every week that then top 1% get in, make them available to people quickly whenever they need them. 24/7 support on the back end in case people have even the smallest issue and a no turnover guarantee. If someone quits, we've covered replacement cost got them a new person right away. So, from there, obviously I sold it or I go And eventually sold it. And now I'm working on outsource school, which is an education platform. And will I'm sure we'll talk about that. But that's the overall story of how I went from a broke college kid to books to baby products to being a pretty big amazon seller to free up to eventually outsource school.
Josh: 06:15-06:37 Wow, that's, that's a wild ride. Well, I want to I want to drill in on one aspect of that, because I think this will be interesting is, what, you know, what were some big lessons between $5,000 investment in this this new company and getting to $12 million? Like what? What did you learn about hiring along the way? And I'm sure that that's in your school, your new school here. What did you learn about that?
Nathan: 06:38-09:33 Yeah, so a lot of our hiring lessons like a lot of the errors and the tribulations that was in the Amazon business by year seven of the Amazon business, we had come up with a rock solid hiring process, and we took that process and move it over to free apps. So with the Amazon business well, we spent the first few years figuring out how to hire we hit the ground running with the free up business we hired assistance and multiple assistance and eventually made team leaders and team leader assistance and had weekly meetings and eventually quarterly meetings. But it all comes down to that same fundamental, you need a process for hiring and you need to improve that process over time. It's not just set it and forget it. So, with interviewing, we want to interview for skill, attitude and communication. It's not just about skill, it's how well can we communicate with them get on the same page? What is their attitude? Do they get angry? Do they get aggressive? Or do they care about the business? And so, being able to interview someone and figure out hey, do they have that great attitude? Do they have the skills we need? Are we going to be able to communicate with them is huge. Then from there the part the part that everyone always skips is high setting expectations with them before you get started. We add that extra level where we go through their internet, their power situation, what the backup plans are, how we expect them to communicate who's in charge, what tasks they're responsible for, like going through everything and even giving them have a chance to back out because we would much rather they back out before we invest time and energy into them if what they want what we want is not aligned. From there. It's training them what is the most efficient method to training them where I'm not spending all my time doing one on one training, and then having them quit and have them do the same thing over again with another person or feeling like oh my God, I've already committed 10 hours to this person, I got to give them more time, I got to give them more time. So, figuring out how to efficiently train them. And then lastly, after you have invested all this time, all this energy, you've interviewed them, you set expectations, you've trained them, how do you get them to stick around? your business, love your business, treat it like your own, get them to buy into the long-term vision, the big picture. And all that doesn't just happen by accident. We didn't just wake up one day and hire 35 full time people and cross our fingers and hope it worked out. There's an actual process that you need to go through. And that process needs to get better and better over time. And even without shore school now we're kind of starting over again, we just hired our first few VAs and we interviewed them, we set expectations, we were now in the process of training them, and also the managing them where we're going through, hey, this is the culture of our businesses, what we want you to buy into, this is our long term vision, and we want them to own it. So, it's all the same, you constantly make it better and better. And I think so many people are focused on how do I make a good hire and not how do I build make my process and system better? Because over time, that's what grows your business.
Josh: 09:34-09:38 So, there are some people I work with, I work with business owners, as you know. Some of them, you know, I think are methodical enough to do this process you're mentioning, but some of them I feel like they're just to A-D-D to do it. Do you recommend that people that owners actually get involved and are part of doing this hire process or in train themselves and get disciplined? Or do you think if they know they're just too gut driven that they should actually have someone else to their team do the majority of these.
Nathan: 10:01-11:28 So you have to build a foundation of it. And this is what we did. We built the foundation. We got some awesome people in there, Jane Chiks, Martius, Layden, I'm still friends with them today. They're the team leaders that free up. They're rock stars. I'm actually gonna, they're coming to Tampa in a few and they're like a month and a half and I'll be meeting and visiting with them. They are awesome. And but I didn't just make them team leaders from day one and say, hey, you handle the interview process, I'm going to go do other stuff. And it better work out. I made sure that they were awesome. I tested them, I gave them more responsibility. I made sure they actually wanted that responsibility. And we're gonna go through in that course how to build a team leader and how to make sure someone's good and protect that investment and have their pay actually reflect how the business is doing. So, they feel part of it and they're not going anywhere. And yes, once you get a team leader that you can trust and I trust it all for them, they can do the interviewing. I recommend that maybe for the first few interviews that you stay on them and you give them some feedback and put them in right direction, yes, but at the end of the day, I wasn't managing and running 35 people, I had team leaders who are responsible for their team, their people, and if they needed someone for their team, they would ask me and they would put in a request on free up and they would interview the person and they were responsible for it so you can get to that level and I know our viewers want to get to that level. But if you don't have that foundation, if you've never done the interviews before, if you don't know what exactly you're looking for passing it off to someone else is not realistic.
Josh: 11:29-12:08 Okay. So as the owner, this is a skill you have to learn to some degree and this is as an owner is watching this, you have to follow a process and build it and then once the process works, then you can start to get some freedom with having your team do it. So I want to dig into this course I know we got limited time and you mentioned certain things you do like interview and onboard and training and managing and so are there like any key components that a typical business owner because we small businesses are watching this, that they really mess up on, like where did where people usually screw up the process or they screw up all those phases?
Nathan: 12:09-14:43 Yeah, so the one that they probably screw up the most is the expectations and getting on the same page because you have to remember if you're a virtual assistant, you've worked with lots of other clients, you might have three part time clients or a full time client and one or two part time. And, and each per client wants a different thing. Each client has their own expectations. There's a lot of assumptions that go on. I've had clients who they find out two months after working with the VA that the VA has a second client and they're super pissed and they're super upset. Well, you should have figured that out from the beginning. You should have asked them, you should have gotten that information and made sure that that you are okay with that. I've had a situation with lady and one of the team leaders who I knew from the beginning that she had a second client and I was okay. I was fine with it. So 40 hours a week for me 20 hours for her working 60 hours a week in the Philippines isn't that unreasonable, but I went through and I said, listen, you're a rock star, I see you as a big part of free up going forward. I want to know if it hypothetically, is it at all possible for you to drop that other client to work for me? And what would it take for that to happen? And I just want you to think about it and get back to me. And so, because I had the information up front, I was able to have that conversation. She came back and said, hey, I need to make it work with my finances and dropping that job. I need an extra like $1.50 an hour. I said, alright, I'll offer you two bucks an hour right now if you drop that client, put in your two weeks notice, focus on me going forward, and I'll make you a team leader worked out for both of us. She's a team leader on free up going for. Now, you can't do that if you don't have the information and you set those expectations up front. Another example that we'll go over in the course is you should know what kind of computer everyone has. You should know what kind of internet they have, what kind of power they have, how often they have power interruptions. If they're in a rural area versus city they tend to have more power issues. What is their backup plan? Are they one issue away from not being able to work for weeks? Or do they have a second computer somewhere to go if they lose internet, because that's going to depend how much of an investment you're going to put into someone if I, if someone's a really good VA, but they're one computer issue away from not being able to work, I can still use that I can still get that VA certain tasks, certain responsibilities, but I need to have a backup plan if that person can't work, and I can prepare for that as an entrepreneur. So, getting all that information upfront, setting expectations, and then holding people to those expectations. If you tell me that, when you lose internet, you're going to go to a cafe and then you lose internet. You don't go to that cafe. That's an issue. I'm going to go back to the conversation say this is what we talked about, this is what we agreed to. So that expectations part to me is key.
Josh: 14:44-15:10 Okay, so most people, they just assume that their VA is going to read their mind. And then the VA doesn't read their mind. They get upset, okay, like, yeah, I believe that. So for those people, because I would assume most of the people who are listening to this have never hired anybody to as of us, me, a lot of them have, but especially traditional businesses, what advice would you give them about taking that first step? Maybe they're afraid to do it.
Nathan: 15:11-17:20 So, one of my first hires was Chicky, and I'm the godfather of one of her kids, we have a great relationship. We've been working together for eight plus years. She was in the Philippines. And when I hired her, I hired a few other people from the Philippines and they quit and they weren't productive and, and I went to her and I said, geez, I'm struggling here. Like, I've only worked with people in the US, like, what am I missing? What do I need to know about people in the Philippines? And she told me, she told me what are other clients did that work that was effective. She told me how my communication style was harsh and aggressive and how I wasn't being clear how I wasn't setting expectations. And I took the time to actually learn what it was like to communicate with someone in another country. So, let's talk about just the Philippines for a second because that's where I hire a lot of good VAs. There's certain things that you need to know as an entrepreneur. I mentioned they're hard working, working 60 hours a week is not out of the norm. And if you try to get a VA to only work 40 hours a week for you, you need to probably pay them a little bit more because they want to be able to provide for their family, they might need that second job. So, you have to decide if you need that commitment. At the same time, if and I've seen this, a lot of ways will work 100 plus hours a week, well, I don't want to work with a VA that's working 100 plus hours a week if 40 hours a week is for me, they're going to be tired, they're eventually gonna be unproductive, that's not sustainable. So I need to know going in that, okay, 60 hours is reasonable. 100 hours is not. Let's figure out how much how they're working. They tend to be a little bit more emotional, a little bit more sensitive. I tend to be a direct entrepreneur. I know a lot of direct entrepreneurs, super easy to say the wrong thing hurt their feeling. And you have to be sensitive to that. They're very shy. They have good ideas. They have good feedback, but you got to pry it out of them a little bit. You got to make them comfortable with sharing feedback, sharing ideas that they're not going to get fired, they're not going to get yelled at and that they're part of a family, because they all are about family. And then I mean the other stuff like the internet and the computer, what's realistic expectations and we're going to go on and on about this in the course and teach you everything you need to know about the Philippines. But those are kind of the basics that I didn't I had no idea I had a lot of issues that cost me a lot of time. And once I sat down with Chiks and took the time to actually learn this stuff, it really helped me build a good team going forward.
Josh: 17:21-17:26 Yeah, that's really interesting. Now one of ours had a volcano eruption, maybe you had the same issues happened. Yeah, I was like, huh, that's something that I wouldn't have thought would affect your business, volcanoes. So, alright. So, you, you find them and of course free up dot com will be a great place to go to look for VAs. You interview them. And then any recommendations on the actual interview process because people who have traditional companies, they are used to the face to face interview. How is it different when there is a cultural barrier, language barrier and time barrier?
Nathan: 17:58-19:02 So I would not do interviews via voice or I would not do interviews via video, I like to do it via either Slack or Skype or some kind of chat method. And we'd call it our ERAC method, which stands for experienced red flags, attitude and communication. And we're going to go through the exact questions we asked to go through attitude, how to look for those red flags, and how to see that they're communicating. Because if someone's taking five minutes to respond to every question, or you ask a question, and their response isn't direct, it's not clear, you're clearly not on the same page. There are things you can get out of that, because you have to be able to quickly get on the same page with them in a meeting for a project to for whatever it is going forward. So if you can't have a Skype conversation, and have to not have to call them or get on a voice call to clearly get your point across, you're going to run into issues, so we almost like to simulate what it's like to work with someone in real life via slack via Skype, whatever channel you use, and we're actually going to videotape live interviews. I was going through it with the A's and point out hey, why this answer is good. Why this is a Red Flag and I think it's gonna be a lot of fun.
Josh: 19:03-19:22 It's interesting. I've heard that. So, it's a chat interview, because that's going to be the majority of the way you communicate with your team. Yeah, exactly. How do you do? You mentioned the hours, you know, 40 hours a week, 60 hours a week? Do you actually recommend tracking hours with a remote team? Or is that something that you don't do?
Nathan: 19:23-20:23 I don't, I read somewhere, someone had a really good quote. It's like, if you want, if you want to just suck the soul out of people that you're working with, it's like measure their work by the amount of hours, they work and look over their shoulder the entire time that they're doing it and it couldn't be more true. I mean, we have 35 full time days, we put team leaders in place. I don't want to go through their screenshots. I don't want to track their hours. If they're messing around. If they're not getting stuff done. It's not going to take me very long to figure out that it's them and yeah, maybe it goes a week too long and I lose a little bit of money but the morale benefits, the trust benefits that getting the people to buy into the company. Benefits that's worth a lot more than the extra few hundred bucks, I lose when someone messes around for a few weeks, and then I have to fire them. So, for me, it's setting high expectations, holding people to high expectations, creating a family environment where people want to have fun, they don't want to let the company down. They feel a part of it. And if you do that correctly, you do not need to watch their screen every second of their working.
Josh: 20:24-20:47 Yep. Totally agree. Now, you've mentioned a little bit kind of danced around the topic of how much typically someone gets paid over there. And you've been in this industry, it's really longer than I have. Do you see any trends? Do you see any endgame in terms of where the pricing is going to go? Or do you expect this to stay stable?
Nathan: 20:46-22:01 I mean, nothing ever say stay stable, but you're probably still in that $5 to $7 an hour range for a normal VA. I have team leaders or I had team leaders that were making 20 plus an hour because I tied their pay with the business grows and got someone in that actually started at three. And I said, listen, okay, you became a team leader when you got to five. Now every time we go up 500 build hours a week, I'm gonna get your pay going up 50 cents an hour. And if we go down to levels, your pay is going to go down, you won't go below the minimum. So, you're not going to get paid nothing if the business tanks, but I'm gonna put that in place so that you grow with the business and they're not going anywhere, right? The second they get over eight bucks an hour like they're in this they're committed and, and they grew free up from 500 build hours a week to 19,000 build hours a week, and their pay goes up to over 20 bucks an hour. And they're worth every second of it. Because they've been there for four years. Think about how much experience you gain in four years, how much everyone respects. You imagine how devastating it would be for one of them to quit, have to replace a team leader? How long would it take you to replace that knowledge alone? So yes, you're paying a little bit more. You're paying more than the average market rate, but it's almost like insurance, it's protection to make sure that they stick with you.
Josh: 22:02-22:23 Yep. I totally agree. I think it's a great. So if you find someone who's good, who's committed long term and sees the vision, they will help you get there. If you incentivize, now I've heard this, you know, Filipino culture specifically is not as excited about financial incentives as other cultures like Americans. Did you have you found that or not?
Nathan: 22:24-23:46 Yeah, so great question. I obviously had a chance to talk to a lot of VA’s not just on my internal team but on the marketplace and free up and I would always ask them, like who their favourite clients are and before asked the question in my mind that your favourite clients a person who pays you the most, right, if you're a VA, like that makes the most sense. And it was almost never the case. The clients that they liked the most, were the ones that treated them like it was part of their business and treated them with respect and made it feel like a family and actually shared how their work was contributing to the bigger picture. They didn't just hand them an assignment. Get it back. give them another assignment. It was hey, we met we're gonna meet every Monday. Hey, remember what you did last week? This is what a mountain from it. This is how our business is growing. You're a part of that showing appreciation, I appreciate you and Yes, yeah, you can't pay someone like dirt well below market rate and expect them to stick around forever. But if you treat them well, that'll substitute a lot on the payment side and I still recommend giving quarterly bonuses because they're a good way to show appreciation also to challenge them get to know them have more one on one meetings where you can thank them and motivate them going forward. And I recommend giving people raises and with a certain core of your main team, whether you call them team leaders or whatever putting incentives in place with hey, when we hit certain sales numbers or revenue numbers or whatever numbers your pay is going to go up at this interval so they have a motivation that they know is going to directly impact them not just impact your bottom line.
Josh: 23:47-23:54 So what it sounds like is they should be hired trained to manage just like someone who's sitting right next to their office. Yeah, I mean a lot of ways right?
Nathan: 23:55-24:14 Yeah, in a lot of ways and I think the remote work culture. It leads to a lot of fun, at least a lot of flexibility you get to interact with people that you normally wouldn't meet with. So, in some ways, yes, it's similar, but in some ways, you almost need that communication, the expectations to be at a higher level because you're not working next to them every single day.
Josh: 24:15-24:25 So, what about the onboarding process? So, someone is, yes, they're going to be a winner for your team. And now you need to onboard them, what are some key things that you need to make sure that happens during that process?
Nathan: 24:26-25:44 So, we're gonna we have a checklist that we go through, and I pretty much run through it. So, I'm going through their schedule. Hey, remember, we talked about this schedule during the interview, it's graveyard shift. I want to make 100% sure that you're good with that. Have you worked it before? Are there any like health issues that could pop up or personal things, I'm going to go through there, I'm going to go through their power. I'm going to go through hey, this is what we talked about the job is I want to make sure that you actually have experience here that you like doing this. I want to talk about your long term plans, and really just going through it and reaffirming everything and the a lot of times people forget, this might be a VA that's entering for six or seven different jobs, they might not remember exactly what you talked about what the offer was. And I've also seen situations where the VA gets hired and they get started. And it's nothing like that original job posting that the entrepreneur did a terrible job of getting on the same page. So, my goal is to go through and be as honest and upfront as possible, give them information. Also set the expectations of what's needed for me to run my business and what's going to be distracting. And give them a chance to back out, give them a chance to ask questions, make sure they're 100% good with it before we move forward. And we're not talking you spending 10 hours doing this, I do this in a 15 minute conversation for a new person, it might take 20-25 minutes, but that 20 minute investment is gonna save you so much time and hassle down the line.
Josh: 25:45-26:00 So you've talked a lot about VA’s now in the future, and maybe even now, VA team leads. What are other common roles people should be thinking of when they think of, hey, maybe I should be looking beyond just my country.
Nathan: 26:01-26:52 Yeah, so we talked about team leaders and assistant team leaders and VA is if you want to go a different level, there's freelancers in the world, it's a little bit different when you're onboarding them. It's not a set schedule. It's not me working for you. It's more of a project, hey, this is a graphic design project. Here are the goals, here's what to do, what not to do. You're not teaching someone how to be a graphic designer. And then you also got the experts, that consultants, agencies who have their own systems, their own processes, and you might not know how to do something you don't know how to run Facebook ads, you hire a Facebook ad expert. They're not going to teach them how to do it, because you don't know how, but you're going to set up milestones you're going to set expectations. They have more than one client, what are your communication guidelines? What are how are you guys going to communicate and keep posting and make sure this project is going the right direction. So similar idea, and we might go through this in future courses, but every single process is a little bit different when you're dealing with the freelancers and the higher-level experts.
Josh: 26:53-27:17 I have a feeling that I could talk to you for about four hours about this. Because it's so, so important, and I'm newer to it. Hiring outside of US and kind of learning with our team about that. It's been a great experience really enjoyed growing our team that way. Now, because of time. And because I want to leave you with last word. What's one question I didn't ask you about but I should have asked you about?
Nathan: 27:18-27:42 Oh man getting away from business, I guess what have I been doing since I sold free up? I've got a few things I'm focusing on. I'm working on real estate. So, getting into real estate investing, learning as much as possible, trying to learn some Vietnamese because my fiance's Vietnamese and her family all speak it and I don't want them to be able to talk behind my back anymore. It's a joke. But yeah, so learning those two things that I've taken my priorities all along with outsource school.
Josh: 27:43-27:50 Cool, very cool regulations on the engagement. That's awesome. So, Nathan, where can people go if they want to find out more information about what you're up to now?
Nathan: 27:51- Yeah, go to outsource school dot com and join our newsletter. If you join, you'll be able to get into our first batch of beta testers get a discounted rate there. We're also giving away a free case study on exactly how we scaled the team at free up. So well who we hired here 1-2-3-4, how we structured it, how those structure changed. So that'll give you some good insight there. And then you can follow me on social media. I'm probably one of the easiest entrepreneurs to contact Nathan Hirsch on Instagram and Facebook, the real Nate Hirsch on instagram. Sorry, Nathan Hirsch on LinkedIn and Facebook, the real Nate Hirsch on Instagram and Twitter. Give me a follow like there and yeah, reach out to me. I love networking with other entrepreneurs.
Josh: 28:27-29:11 Okay, that's awesome. All right. Well, thank you again for sharing your wisdom, your knowledge, everybody, take him up on that author that offer and stay tuned. Next week we'll be sharing with you another expert interview with another expert like Nathan or an author or my previous clients to share with you how you can improve your business to help it grow. So, you can make more, work less. And if you want to copy that book right there behind me, Work the System. You can download it for free at work the system dot com, or we're going to be mailing out a free copy once a week to whoever leave us a review so you can leave us a review and a picture of screenshot and email it to info at work the system dot com. And then once a week we'll draw a name out of a hat and we'll mail a copy of that lucky person. Otherwise, thanks everybody for staying tuned and we will see you next week.