Have you ever wanted to buy a business?
Or, how about sell one? If so, our guest today, Terry Lammers, will be the right episode to watch. Terry’s family business grew through acquiring 11 companies and now he is the managing director of Innovative Business Advisors. Terry is the author of “You Don’t Know What You Don’t Know” which details how to make it through the business buying and selling experience.
Josh Fonger: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Work the System podcast where we help entrepreneurs make more and work less using systems. And I'm your host, Josh Fonger. And today I have a special guest. I have Ryan Côté. Ryan is the director of digital services and partner at Ballantine. It's a third generation family owned direct mail and digital marketing company. And Ryan, I'm excited to have you on and kind of pick your brain and find out the latest and greatest in marketing through all mediums. So as we get started, why don't you give us the intro? How did you get into this line of business?
Ryan Cote: [00:00:32] Thanks, Josh.. Happy to be here. So I've been in marketing all my life. I when to college for marketing. And my family business here is marketing, direct mail and digital, though that said, I did not come into the business right out of college, actually had two jobs before coming into the business. And then like two thousand three think it was. My brother joined the company. The seed was planted, I guess you can say. I started thinking about it more and more and approached my, approached my father and my uncle, and I said, I want to come into the business. Now, the issue was I didn't really have a. They did not have a marketing department there. They were getting sales just from referrals and just outbound sales efforts like cold calls. And so they essentially created a marketing role for the company. So I was the marketing director of directing myself, department of One. And after about 10 years doing everything from the website, digital, tradeshow management, do a little bit of sales myself, is there everything marketing, you know, is focusing on me. How can I get more leads for the company? And then that role morphed into we started offering digital to our clients and that's morphed over the last five years and to just myself now. But now we have twelve people on the team and we do everything from social media to SEO, paid search, content and we still do a ton of direct mail. That's still a major part of our business.
Josh Fonger: [00:01:53] And so that was 2003 when you started.
Ryan Cote: [00:01:56] Yes.
Josh Fonger: [00:01:57] Wow. I can see you've been involved in digital marketing for a long time and seen it from the very beginning. That's very cool. So what what was the vortex like, say here's a lot. I work a lot of family companies. The vortex of not working the family business and then kind of everyone slowly working in there. How many people in your family work in the business?
Ryan Cote: [00:02:18] Well, right now, it's partners in the business agency with myself, my two brothers and my uncle, but my cousin joined nine months ago doing sales for Britain Digital. My other cousin Jason is interning right now. My father retired two years ago. So right now, there's five, Jason is just an intern, so they'll be going back to school. So before. But there was really, to answer your question. It really was no vortex, honestly. I don't think my father unless I'm just not remembering it. I do remember him ever asking if I had any interest. I guess they wanted to see if I really wanted to come to the business. I would just naturally come to them. That's what happened. I mean, I you know, during the high school breaks like summer breaks, I would work at, work at the company helping with like data entry. But honestly, there was never; there was never any push to come into the business. So.
Josh Fonger: [00:03:10] That's interesting. Well, yeah. So usually subtle. It's usually not. I need you to work here. Well, sometimes it is. But in the end, I think it's great, I think your business is great. I think it's a great way to work with the family. But also your parents or uncle, whatever, put so much effort into something to be able to continue to grow it. Generation by generation, which I guess brings me to a question that you probably have already thought about before. Well, we're on the topic is, is the chance of failure of business between generations. And, you know, we know that the statistics of it, I think it's like first generation, it's like first to second, it's like 70 percent or maybe 30 percent. It's a failure like second to third. It's like 60 percent chance of failure. Have you like have you guys done anything as a family business to address that over the over the years?
Ryan Cote: [00:03:57] I mean, we don't know these exit stats, but you're right. There's between generations. There's often a failure rate. I can't remember what generation they say kills the business, but I'm third generation, hopefully its not third generation.
Josh Fonger: [00:04:08] I think its third.
Ryan Cote: [00:04:08] Is it third, well shoot. OK, well, so far so good. But we'll say, yeah, I mean, we're conscious of it. I think for us it's we're very sales oriented. So we're always trying to get new clients try to service our clients, existing clients, so we never get too comfortable even in good years. It's always like this kind of like this paranoia in the back of my head here that we need more clients when things feel like they're going well. And we also have just honestly, we have different strengths and weaknesses. So, yeah, like my brother Scott is strength, operations and finance. So we have all the bases covered. There's like because honestly, that's not my strength and that's not my brother and my uncle's strength. So my father is leaving. You know, there would have been this sort of like this void because he has operational and finance oriented. So there would have been this void. But then my youngest brother, he had a career for 10 years and doing travel and finance ,what have you. Up in Massachusetts. He came to join the business. And so that void was filled, Fortunately.
Josh Fonger: [00:05:10] That's good. You got to diversify based on your strengths. That's a and think like you said, as long as you have the hunger to keep growing and the fire your belly because the owner, original owner always has it. And then sometimes I can get lost generation, but sounds like you guys still have it. Well, let's get on to, go ahead.
Ryan Cote: [00:05:27] I was going to say diversifying too, you know, we had the print and we add the digital. So diversifying as best as we can.
Josh Fonger: [00:05:34] Well, then let's get to marketing questions here, because, you know, I work with I've worked with clients where all we do is door to door knocking, literally door hangers and flyers with clients of direct mail pieces and digital and social media only and radio. And so when you're working with a new client, how do you help them make a determination since you do all the mediums? How do you make a determination of where to spend their money?
Ryan Cote: [00:06:04] Yes, so the way we do it, so we know we're continuously fine tuning. Because the digital side of the business is still I guess it's a start at the start within a bigger company. It's five years old. So if I look at how we're doing things now versus when we first started, it's crazy to see. It's almost a comparison to think about it the first year or two. We're always trying to figure out how to on-board clients, better service and better what have you. And so like the latest addition to how we on-board clients is when we have the initial kick off with them, we talk about the access that we need with questions we have with you. This whole positioning statement exercise. So we find out like what they sell? Who do they sell to? What resonates with their target audience? And so once we paint a hopeful picture, then it becomes more obvious as to what channels are going to work best for them, whether it's just SEO, obviously budget comes into comes into play. But if your budget's very limited obviously, that's going to restrict the choices you can make. But that position statement really dictates, you know, what channels we're going to use, how much we're going to spend. I mean, honestly though Josh, that we do quarterly reviews on our client. So some of the changes like what we start with, it may not have been the right answer. And so we do every three months we're looking at what's working, what's not, and we'll just kind of make tweaks to the system to like what we're doing for them. And so sometimes it changes every three months because things sometimes don't work and sometimes things start working after a few months and you might put more money into it. So it's just it's evolving system, I guess you could say.
Josh Fonger: [00:07:36] So I've had several used car dealerships, so there's actually a lot of work with. So let's say you're going to use car dealership and they say, hey, we want to spend twenty thousand dollars a month on advertising and they've got some corner location, You're in n New Jersey, right?
Ryan Cote: [00:07:54] Yeah.
Josh Fonger: [00:07:55] So course we know the direct mail works. Radio works and know what what how did you would you sequence out? Would you do a/b testing or because there's a lot of options for them right through their spend, let's say, 50 grand a month.
Ryan Cote: [00:08:09] Yeah. So the dealership is actually one of the verticals that we have we work with on the digital side, actually, print and digital. Cause, the thing about dealerships is that they typically use all channels because their whole strategy is just saturate what's called their PMA, their local market. And so how much they have to spend depends on how big their PMA is. If they're PMA is huge, they have to spend more because it's more direct mail. They have to send out more emails, they have to spend out send out more Facebook ads, et cetera. So in our experience, which works best for dealerships, is that they're using all channels, direct mail, email, Facebook ad, Google ads. Thnik I, I don't think I'm forget anything there. But so there is a lot of SEO. So they're using all channels. I think really what comes down to it is like the sequencing of the we're going to push used cars, we push new cars, are we going to push service and parts? So a sort of rotate schedule based on what the dealerships goals are, because dealerships and they really think this applies to most businesses. What's important to him, one month might be different the next month. And so we have to match up what we're doing with what their goals are for that month and some months. They want to push just use cars next month. It might be just service parts. And so our marketing that we implement for them will reflect what their goals are for that month. That answers your question.
Josh Fonger: [00:09:28] Yeah, it does. I. Since you work with multiple big companies and large companies. Is there a big difference in the way that they spend their marketing dollars or their strategies? So let's just say that if a company is doing a hundred million dollars a year versus one that's doing five hundred thousand dollars a year, what are they to think about it differently with regards to their marketing choices?
Ryan Cote: [00:09:50] I mean, the biggest difference, I think is, you know, because on the digital side, we're working a lot of local businesses. And so obviously it's smaller budgets because they're focusing on a very small market. And some of the strategies will be it will be different. So some of our national clients, we're going to put less emphasis on Google Maps optimization strategies. It's obviously if you're a local business, you want to saturate your local market as much as possible. And that's where Google Maps will come in maybe ways, Wayz advertising, you know, advertising the g._p._s. So there's slight nuances there. But really, like our bigger national clients, they're spending more ad ads. They're spending more in direct mail because they need to reach a bigger audience. So just requires a bigger budget.
Josh Fonger: [00:10:31] So I was reading through your bio and there is a note here about five ways to drive leads with digital marketing. If you have that cued up in your mind or not. But what are those? So I can think of a few.
Ryan Cote: [00:10:46] Yeah, I can I can talk about that. So ways to drive leads with digital advertising. So as SEO search engine optimization, obviously. So we find is that SEO and paid search, they drive mostly leads. But there's there's actually a slate actually there's a slight asterisk to that. So Facebook ads can work and can drive leads as well. Morse What I'm saying is that SEO and Facebook, SEO and paid ads like paid to click ads. They drive more leads for people that are interested in like services, for example. You still generate a lot of leads through Facebook ads, but it's more like options, like something. So Facebook has this ad objective where you can it's called lead formats where you can easily click someone's email address if you want to give them like a newsletter, what have you. It's a way to get that leads like. So consider that a lead. It's just different lead versus someone. Hey, I want to do business with you and fill out your contact form. Says, hey, here's my email address. I want your white paper, still a lead, both are leads, but just different varying degrees of leads. So SEO is definitely one way. Definitely. You want a nice organic presence paid ads on Google. Definitely important. We've had limited, limited success with Bing advertising, so I'll throw that out there because it doesn't mean it doesn't work, but Google ads for sure. Facebook and LinkedIn definitely try. They're definitely try there. They're the formats where you basically are collecting someone's email address. They Facebook length. They pretty populate the person's information. And it makes it very, very easy just to collect that e-mail address. And then I would say we're getting really the last way. We're going to really begin to video. Have we built all the fancy equipment now? That was our last upgrade this year. But all the fancy equipment and we're do a lot more video and then videos, you can use them in ads. You can use them on your Web site. They; they help increase the conversion rate and your Web site to get more leads. And so video, obviously, it is huge. It's only a bigger and bigger. So that's that's the investment that we're making.
Josh Fonger: [00:12:42] So let's say you own a ice cream shop in town and it's always been known as ABC Ice Cream. Would you think that they should continue to use their brand, ABC Ice Cream, or do you think the video getting to know the owner and getting to know the kind of video of the people who work there? Which one is more powerful nowadays?
Ryan Cote: [00:13:02] I mean, you know, I don't know if it's because I. It's a family business speaking here. But I love we always recommend to our clients that transparency, like who is behind the curtain, who's who. That more personal effective. Like, here's the owner. Here's the team members. Here's where we work. Here's the company as opposed to like, you know, more corporate video that, you know, is a bit less personal, more cold. So we always push our clients and sometimes; sometimes our clients don't want to be in the video. But we always make our recommendation to, you know, we show your face. Show the people that are behind the company, make that personal touch. I think that's I think that's really important. I think as we grow and grow. People want to do business with people they like and trust to know and support the local community. And I know Amazon's ginormous and that's growing, growing. But I think; I think local business is still very important. And you want to have that personal, personal touch.
Josh Fonger: [00:13:53] Well, this is probably interesting for how about a little less than 10 percent of only 7 percent of our clients are digital marketing companies small, medium, large. So this is kind of a question that you might speak to. So you mentioned that you might recommend that they do videos of themselves. You might recommend this. And so so they're giving you money. Let's say they give you ten thousand dollars a month to do advertising and you recommend all these things. You know, we're going to work. But they're like, I don't want to do that, and, you know, I kind of like this other headline or I can like these other things. And, you know, it's it hurt them. And therefore they're going to blame you for the poor results in the marketing ad spend that you spent. How do you navigate those those waters where they're kind of hurting themselves?
Ryan Cote: [00:14:35] Yeah, that's a great question. Big part of our job is really setting expectations for the client and helping to make the best decisions. Not that our ideas are always the best right out of the gate, but we always recommend what you think is going be best based on our experience here and other clients. Honestly, if a client comes to us with what we think is. Not a great; is a bad idea. We're going to tell them because ultimate, what happens is if it doesn't work. Then it comes back on us and we don't want to waste our money, too. Of course, if they're adamant, though, we'll test it. And then we track phone calls. We track for submissions. We put everything to a nice dashboard. And so it's very clear what's working, what's not. So they're adamant about testing. It will make it very clear that we do not think it's going to work. And so those clients will take our, you know, trust us and not do it. And if they do do it, then we just test that. We see if it works and maybe they're right and then we're wrong. But we always vocalize our concerns because, you know, we look at, I guess, where they're vendor, but we look at it whereas like a partnership. And so we want at least give our opinion and help to make the right decision. But yeah, sometimes it's not fun conversations because we had yourself tell someone there. We think you're wrong about getting them angry. So it's more about using your words. Actually, it's funny when you ask this question. We had a professional training for the team last year, this week on client communication. So just how to communicate clients better?
Josh Fonger: [00:15:59] Yeah, well I I'm just thinking of problem clients. Well, here's the other problem. So sometimes when I'm working with a client, this is helping me out. So I'm working with the client and I see that she gets the marketing services, they'll try to service out. They're afraid that they won't get an ROI fast enough for cash flow. So what is typically, you know setting expectations? What's typically the time period takes before someone knows? Is this marketing company actually helping? Is it working? Can I even tell you have to give a marketing company three months, six months, two months. How long you think it's reasonable?
Ryan Cote: [00:16:34] I always we always asked for six months. So three months is it's not how you think about it. If what you're doing if someone's hiring a digital agency for SEO content, social media, all this stuff. There is a lot to get going. There's a lot to set up in the beginning. Set can really last a whole first month. There might be something's happening. Week two, week three, but there's a lot going on. So the actual marketing doesn't start till really month two. So three months is not enough time. So we say six months. But if they can give us a year, that's even better. Even better. But I know that's probably a lot to ask. So we say six months. And that's where we actually should not to get into legal stuff. Your best way we structure our contracts. You know, like month a month for the first six months because we don't want them to feel locked in. But, you know, it's that time period. We need that that time to show them results. But we don't have to be locked in. But we set the expectation that it is month, month for the first six months, but really an outlet to make a decision if this is work or not, till six months.
Josh Fonger: [00:17:36] So then what? It will issue an owner do if they need to. So I've got a client right now, a chiropractor. Right. And she wants new patients because you just hired a new; another chiropractor in the practice, right. So they've seen it twice as many clients now. So they go out and they get some digital marketing services. Should they say, gosh, we don't really know if this is working for potentially six months, so we're ready to drop. I don't know twelve thousand, two thousand; lets just say three thousand, that would be eighteen thousand dollars, twenty thousand dollars even to see if it is working? And I guess what I'm trying to get to this question is, is a lot of small business owners who just don't have twenty thousand hours to put it in a gambling table. How do they how do they know what are the early signs of success and how do they know how to make a good choice there?
Ryan Cote: [00:18:22] Yeah, I would say if a client had it in that situation, I would always recommend starting off with Google ads first, because here's the thing I said six months overall for the overall campaign, but if your just doing SEO. It could take a year, especially now. Back in 2003, when I first started here. Honestly, SEO is, it was very easy. It was all about just building backlinks no matter how crappy, how many just build the backlinks with the right anchor text. And it worked. That is a much different game now and it takes usually 12+ twelve plus months to see results with a show that is even exciting and then it builds from there and it's more a long term strategy. At last stop, working with a digital agency, the results continue, but it takes a while. So I would say to that question Josh, I would say to start with Google ads because it's; there is buyer intent, someone has a type, has an either typing chiropractor near me or what have you. And the traffic is going to be almost immediate. A lot of flexibility. It's pretty clear if it's working or not, because you're gonna track your phone calls or contract form submissions so you can make a quicker; with Google ads, you might be able, you might go to say, three or four months in, if it's worth continuing, it might you might not need a full six months. That's what I would say. I would even say social media, because you want to get what people you want, get in front of people that have intent, that need a chiropractor. And that's what they're looking to start with. You know, the limited budget they need to make it. I can't think of anything else to recommend better than Google ads.
Josh Fonger: [00:19:50] Ok.
Ryan Cote: [00:19:51] In our experience,.
Josh Fonger: [00:19:52] Yeah. I think the. For those who don't know much about marketing and do make a choice. I think you're kind of really hitting on the fact that each of these medium is matter. They can work together, but some mediums give me more money upfront, payback quicker, right? That there's a faster response rates google ad fast response rate, SEO could be a better investment. You're not going to see much for a year. So you have to be ready to understand what kind of investment you're making. And again, it might be a better investment, but it's a long term investment. So you can't wait a year to get some leads. Then maybe not the first starting point.
Ryan Cote: [00:20:28] And you mentioned something about the synergy. You are right. It's some of just sounds like it's like a sales pitch at the synergy and you should uses for all the channels. But there is actually there is actually truth to that because, for example, just give me two examples. You know, as part of Google Paper, click you to do remarketing so that when someone leaves a site, they see your banners browsing the Internet. If you've ever put anything in your cart in Amazon, it'll haunt you for the rest of your life. That's remarketing. It follows you around. This as part of Google ads. So anything you're doing, whether it's SEO, social media advertising, email marketing, you're driving traffic back to your site and you need that remarketing to bring them back. If you're not doing Google ads, that remarketing, that can be there and you're not going to have a second opportunity to stay top of mind with that person. Also, we usually see when we're running a lot of Facebook ads for clients, even paid ads, really social media ads, content. We'll see an increase in their organic because someone if some of us repeatedly sees a Facebook ad for company, generally what can happen is I'll go to Google, they'll type in more information at that company. So we usually see a spike in organic when we do social media ads. So they all kind of feed; feed off each other. So there definitely is some synergy. We usually see the best results when the clients using all channels doesn't mean they're using us for all channels. It means that maybe we're doing SEO and paid search, but then they're doing Facebook and Instagram and some other things like email on their end collectively. It amplifies results.
Josh Fonger: [00:21:58] Well, so when someone is making a digital marketing choice in general, does it make sense to go with a company that does it all or to pick one company for social media and one company for direct mail, one company for digital marketing services, then another company that does copywriting for your website or what? How do they, how can someone navigate that kind of, those choices?
Ryan Cote: [00:22:25] Yes, a good question. I mean. To have a special if you're gonna hire, spend it, let's say you're doing four channels and you're gonna hire a specialist in each channel. I definitely see the benefit there because if they're truly the expert in whatever channel that is, then there's definitely some benefits there as a as the client. Got think that you're managing for different vendors and that may or they may or may not mind. You know, and then you might have something like they're pointing fingers at each other. It is not their fault. It's not our fault. It's our fault. But I doubly see the benefits there now because my my interest me a little bias because we do everything in-house. So I'll speak on the benefits of why I think it's good to go with. It does at all. It's because we do. We do key meetings with client; with. So the way we're structured as we have specialist for SEO, specialist for paid search, social media, etc.. And so when a client using it for using us for all the services, the team, the team is working together on that client. So right before we got the call, I was passing by one of our rooms here and there was four or five team members are meeting about a specific client going or going over key word ideas for SEO and paid search. Key word ideas they're going to use them in the content marketing for the blog topics. So that synergy that the team is literally meeting about one client talking about what they're gonna be doing. You don't have that if you're working with different specialists at different companies. So we try to make it our we try to put emphasis here on all the teams getting together on a client to try to share ideas and share results. So to me, that's like a major, major benefit. And like I said, obviously I'm biased because their my agency. But.
Josh Fonger: [00:24:00] No, that makes sense. I'm just curious because we want options out there and it's difficult to navigate and make those choices. But I can kind of see the pros and cons. So I know we're kind of running low on time and taking you all over the map here. Is a question that I didn't ask you. I should have asked you that you want to leave the audience, but before we sign off.
Ryan Cote: [00:24:20] Can I go into left field?
Josh Fonger: [00:24:22] Sure, yeah. Go wherever you want to go. It's your chose.
Ryan Cote: [00:24:26] I think we, I mentioned on the pre call. I really began self-improvement, you know.
Josh Fonger: [00:24:30] Yeah, yeah let's do it.
Ryan Cote: [00:24:32] So I'm going to go deep into the woods here, but it's a bit, its a bit major for me. We went to; we went through a period 2017 where things were not going our way for the new business. Just a lot happening. And we had to make some changes. But the clients that we're going after and our processes and stuff like that, just the nature of business. And at that time, I start to get back into because I was kind of like, you know, like the world was fall and ceiling fall on top, man, as like I do here. And so I you start to get back into self-improvement. And I seen that turn things around. But it was a big, big part of my life. So start working out more; boxing. But I started a morning routine that's been key for me. A morning routine with gratitude and meditation, a little bit of exercise, just a positive mindset type stuff. And so it's been a big change, a big game changer for me. So I think that in addition to the changes we made here, it just things start to turn around. And since 2000, since late 2017, we've been nice upward trajectory. I always preached the I always preach about, you know, having morning routines and just work on yourself. I guess is a thing. You know, work on yourself and it will pay dividends in your business.
Josh Fonger: [00:25:38] Now, I think that's really good advice. And we've been exploring those topics. I know we talked about that ahead of time, but in terms of ROI an investment so that you can invest in these things but invest in yourself, you're going to get that ROI every second of every day. So it's worth it's worth the investment. It will definitely payback, especially as a leader, like in your case with the team underneath you. Your team needs you to lead. Well, actually, that's a good question as a follow up. So as a leader, you said you sort of leading one, which was yourself. Now you got a team. Any leadership lesson you've learned along the way of actually having examined subordinates as opposed to just yourself?
Ryan Cote: [00:26:18] Yeah, that's been actually a huge change for me. I was used to be myself for 10 years. And I'm like, you know, I'm I lean more towards introvert. I don't consider myself like a natural leader, though. I think I've got some qualities of it. I have a growth mindset and and I want to do a better job. I think that's the biggest starting point. What I have learned is. Well, when I say before, you have to work on yourself because I have to show up the best I can every day for my for myself or for the team here best I can. You know, and that's always I think that's going to be a process that's always can be. Try get better and better at. But I think to be transparent with your team, make sure they can come to you comfortable. You're not leading with like an iron fist. They feel it. They come to be anything. I think investing in your team, too, has been huge. We invest in our team in terms of I take them out to lunch every once a while. Like one on one to get to know them better, do professional training every month, just put back, you know, give back to them, not give back to them, but like invest in them. We do a lot of things culturally here that I think makes a big difference. Like monthly lunches that the company pays for in addition to lunches I do. We do birthday breakfast, every time one has a breakfast for your birthday. You get it for breakfast. We do quarterly team events. We're fairly flexible in the work schedule coming and going. So that's been a big difference. That's been a big thing, too. I think really if I had. Like you said, what's one thing because you're rambling. I would say it's it's; it's investing in them. Yeah.
Josh Fonger: [00:27:51] Ok, so good things. Invest yourself first and then out of the surplus, invest in the team. OK. That's good. You lead. You can't just leave them behind. Very cool. All right. So we're going to go find out more about you, Ryan, and your business.
Ryan Cote: [00:28:07] So I set up a special page for your audience. On there they can connect with me in Linkin, but also there's an offer for a free video analysis. So essentially what I'll do is I'll go through their Web site, a video and just look at things in terms of SEO, just call to actions. Take a look at their social media. You know, just like a 10 minute video. Just give them my ideas and what I think they're doing. Well, could be approved on. And that offer is on its Ballantine dot com, forward slash work the system. Ballantine dot com forward slash work the system.
Josh Fonger: [00:28:38] Ok. Well, the price is right. Free video review. I might take you up on that. It's a great, great thing. Hopefully you'll check it out to watch the podcast. And Ryan, thanks again for being here. And thanks, everybody, for join me this week. Me and Ryan join us next week. I'll be interviewing other guests like Ryan, an expert in their field or an author speaker or maybe one of my past clients. Somebody help you grow your business and you can make more and work less. And if you want to join us live. This is a Facebook Live, on to join us live. Make sure you go to our Facebook page and like it. Then you can be and you'll get announced when we go live with one of these podcast interviews. And then also, you want to copy that book right there behind me, signed by Sam Carpenter himself. Give us a review, leave us review on either where we watched this, whether it's a i-Tunes, you're watching it on Facebook or wherever it might be YouTube. Leave us a review and it was a give us an e-mail at info at work the system dot com with a review. And then we'll be mailing out one book a week to the winner of the week. Alright everybody. We'll see you next week.