Essential Negotiation Skills for Entrepreneurs


Create and close better deals by listening to this actionable podcast with Chris Voss.  Chris is the national best-selling author of Never Split The Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depends On It and CEO of the Black Swan Group.  With a 24 year background as an FBI kidnapping negotiator, Chris brings a wealth of experience and practical tactics on how to overcome negotiation challenges and to make great deals happen!


Josh Fonger: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Work the System podcast, where we help entrepreneurs make more and work less. And I’m your host, Josh Fonger. And today we have a special guest, Chris Voss. Chris is the CEO of the Black Swan Group and author of the national best seller Never Split the Difference Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It, which is named one of the seven best books on negotiation as a twenty four year, 24 year veteran of the FBI. Chris retired as the lead international kidnapping negotiation, drawing on his experience in high stakes negotiations. His company specializes in solving business communication problems using hostage negotiation solutions. Their negotiation methodology focuses on discovering the black swans, small pieces, immigration that have a huge effect on an outcome. Chris and his team have helped companies secure in close better deals, save money and solve international internal communication problems. Chris isn’t featured in Time, Business Insider, Entrepreneur, Inc., Fast Company, Fortune, The Washington Post, Success Magazine, Squawk Box, CNN, ABC News, and many more. All right, very good well, Chris, I’m excited to have you on the show and to start things off once you tell us the backstory, how did you get into this line of work as a hostage negotiator?

Chris Voss: [00:01:17] You know, oddly enough to my negotiation career, it all flowed from me hurting my knee. When I was in college, I was on SWAT. I was a police officer. I became an FBI agent. I was on a SWAT team with the FBI. I was trying out for the FBI as hostage rescue team, which is the FBI version of the Navy SEALs, matter of a fact they number of former SEALs and Delta guys on the hostage rescue team. And I reactivated the injury. So I thought, you know, they’re completely blowing my knee out. I had I had it rebuilt again. Negotiators, I talked on the phone. I figured I could do that. How hard could that be? I go around talking every day, and it would have been extraordinary. I mean, the insights to it getting into it was fascinating. And the cool thing about being a hostage negotiator is basically you work while the squad guys stand around and wait for you to do your job. So you get to do your thing a lot more that SWAT guys do anyway.

Josh Fonger: [00:02:19] So with regards to negotiation, what how is it translated over to business for you? I mean, is there a one to one or is it wildly different?

Chris Voss: [00:02:29] Now, it’s pretty much a one to one story across the board hostage negotiation it’s just the application of emotional intelligence. You know, people people in business actually get upset a lot more than people and kidnapperings.

Josh Fonger: [00:02:46] Really? So I don’t think you’d be talking to someone who’s kind of crazy and insane person some degree. So you’re saying that that those people are actually more sane then business deals.

Chris Voss: [00:02:57] Well, the negotiations end up being more sane, mostly because, you know, our hostage negotiators are approach from the very beginning is to help the other side get their emotions under control. That’s pretty much the last thing somebody in a business negotiation wants to do. I mean, so because of that, business negotiators have more stories getting screamed at, people storming out of rooms, calling them names. I mean, that kind of goes with the territory of business negotiations for untrained negotiators. Hostage negotiators are approached right off the bat, as is to get you to calm down. So it’s it’s kind of crazy that hostage negotiations tend overall or probably calm.

Josh Fonger: [00:03:37] So what is the what is some some tips or what is your process for negotiation if you have one? Is there like a preparation? And then the early phase, phase one, phase two, phase three, or is it like a sequence that they normally go in?

Chris Voss: [00:03:51] Yeah, you know, we do teach people a certain process is kind of a minimal process to dial in into an advance to try to get on the same sheet of music with the other side. I mean, by and large, it’s a really bad idea to start a negotiation by making your case, by making your argument. I mean, that’s just that’s what almost everybody does. Let me give you my value proposition. Let me tell you why should make a deal with me. I mean, those are what happens is you. Both sides feel that way to get two people talking at each other. Two people might as well be a president debate. You know, the candidates aren’t there to persuade the other side. They’re there to roll over the other side. And that’s just enough. It’s not a great negotiation. So no one, on the other side is dying to make their case. Let them start out by making their case because they’re immediately going to be a lot more open to listening and field. Stephen Covey advice a modification of its seat first. Understand they’d be understood. All right. So seek first to show that you understand so that you can be understood. Secondly, the quickest sequence to getting your point across is to hear the other side out first.

Josh Fonger: [00:04:59] So you let them tell it and show their cards first. And once they’ve shown all their cards, then you can start to reveal how you want to go about it, I suppose.

Chris Voss: [00:05:09] Yeah. You know, you kind of get them to show their cards by basically trying to lay out what you think their case is. Now you’re going to get their their case right or they are going correct you. And actually the correction process would people really tend to show their cards. I mean, correcting another human being is irresistible. I mean, it is so emotionally satisfying. Might as well be one of the seven deadly sins. And I if I get you correcting me, you’re gonna blurt stuff out, that probably would have been very closely held otherwise, you know, so, you know, I can say something like, you know, it seems like your chief of operations or, you know, pick somebody out on your team. And, you know, it seems like you’re your director of operations, just not on board with this. They go, No,no no. My director of operations is fine with this. Well, what you really need to know right off the bat was where the director of operations stood because the director of operations might kill the deal. So, you know, they’re going to they’re going to be candid with you if they correct you. I mean, it’s just it’s insane how honest people are when they get into the correction mode because correcting another human being is just so satisfying. It feels so good. And you get a lot of great information that way.

Josh Fonger: [00:06:26] So let’s let’s run through like a scenario. Let’s say you are. You have a fitness gym like you own a gym and you want to buy the gym. Let’s just say down the street and own to two gyms and then random both. And the other guy has owned it his whole life. It’s emotional and he needs to retire. Those who say he’s seven years old, these retire and you want to buy him out. How would you kind of go about this process?

Chris Voss: [00:06:55] You know, I’d start by saying, you know, what does this guy want me to know? This guy wants me to know that his gym is his life or his life’s work. It’s his baby. He’s invested his whole life in it. He’s proud of what he did. And if he wants to know, it’s going to be hard to part with someone to start out by saying like, you know, you put a lot into this gym. I mean, this gym is probably your life or your life’s work. I mean, you created this out of nothing. You gave people jobs. Young people make their lives better by working out there. When you put a lot into this is going to be really hard for you part with. And then I need to shut up and let the other guy respond, because that’s going to be his argument for why he wants his price. And it’s kind of funny when you make the other side’s argument as to why they want the price. Then they get a lot more flexible in their price. I mean, in my book, I tell a story of buying my my Toyota Forerunner, which is the salsa red pearl was the color. I mean, it’s the sexiest color you have ever saw in your life. And I sit down with a car negotiation and I threw a number out, which was extremely low. And then I said, look, you know, this truck is worth way more than that. I mean, it’s beautiful. I love it. And it’s one of the sexiest colors I ever saw. I can see myself driving this thing. And not only that, there aren’t any other Toyotas like this anywhere around. I mean, you’ve got the market cornered. But I just can’t pay your price. And you know, the seller. I. That was all things he was gonna say to me. He was gonna say, can’t you just see yourself driving this beautiful truck? I mean, this is the most beautiful color you ever saw. I can tell from the look in your eyes that you love it. The look in your eyes when you came back from the test drive. I saw how much in love you are with the car. But since, as I said, this already form. It left him with nothing to say. Just he looked at me and he blinked. And then he went back and got permission to offer me a lower price. And when he offered me a lower price, I was like, Oh my God, you’re so generous. That cars. That truck is worth that price. It was worth what you were asking for before. I mean, I’m embarrassed. I mean, I’m in love with this beautiful with every dime of what you’re asking for. And then that I shipped that, I said, how am I supposed to pay that? I mean, would you position yourself that asked the killer question after you know, what I just did was basically a demonstration of empathy, appreciation of the other side. That position, which is what we call tactical empathy. And then I you know, I line them off for this. How am I supposed to do that? And they just they don’t know what to do other than cut the price because you made all their arguments for them. So whether or not you’re buying a truck, whether or not you’re buying a gym, whatever the transaction is. I mean, as soon as you articulate the other side’s position as they see it, they become ridiculously agreeable?

Josh Fonger: [00:09:58] Wow, so when. When you go into a negotiation, is there usually a authority where one person has more authority, the other one? Or how do you go at it? Where like is a boss employee situation? How does that change the negotiation tactics if you’re below in authority or if you’re above an authority? How do you come into this situation?

Chris Voss: [00:10:21] Well, you know, authority, leverage, power, whatever these are these are all emotional concepts and emotional perceptions. So I get my biggest advantage by a difference. There’s great power and deference. I mean, we love be deferential. We love being gentle. Because it gives me the ability to then apply my tactical empathy with anyone. So I’m going to be deferential with someone who’s higher in the organization to me, and they’re going to love it because they want to. They want to be satisfied that I know they’re important. I’m going to be deferential with people that are at my same peer level because they’re gonna love it. They’re going to be ridiculously flattered by it and they’re gonna consequently become much more persuadable. I’m going to be deferential with people that are below me in the chain because they’re going to be so appreciative. And they’re going to be consequently more likely to go along because they feel like they’re going along, not because I’m forcing them because I can. Which is actually violates our autonomy and is a great way to get people to resist. But they will appreciate how I’m treating them. And they’re much more likely to collaborate, not just voluntarily, but with extra enthusiasm, because I’ve made them feel so good about themselves. So. Yeah. Deference works with everybody, so use it with everybody.

Josh Fonger: [00:11:49] That’s interesting. So like if if an employee, let’s say your boss and play comes to you and says, hey, I want a ten thousand I raise, you’re not going to just say no, because then you’re gonna create a win lose situation. You’re going to. How would you guys how would you walk that through? Do you want to give him maybe a two thousand are raised on a ten thousand raise?

Chris Voss: [00:12:07] Well, I mean my for this conversation is going to be I mean, how do we how do we make you worth more than that ten thousand dollar raise? I mean we can’t have a conversation now without really talking about your future. Or we can set you up for a phenomenal future. I mean, what do you want out of life? What do you what does working here get you? I’m going to change the conversation, whether I’m the employer or the employee. The points in the future of great success for both because salary is a term and salary is no guarantee of success in either direction. What we really need to be talking about is success. So I can pay you more so you can earn more. I mean, I’m getting I’m getting ready. I have a couple of conversations with some people that I might bring on to my company just over the next couple weeks. And I’m going to say, look, here’s how. Let’s lay out value. Is so that you’re worth way more than what the prices are going to say. Let’s talk about how you can achieve this value for me so that you can guarantee yourself a job. So it’s those great success here. So it’s much more than just the sour I mean, salaries, no guarantee of success in any way, shape or form, salary, salary pays your bills. It doesn’t make your career. Let’s talk about what’s going to make your career.

Josh Fonger: [00:13:29] That’s a totally different approach. I think I mean, the threat I’m also noticing through this and correct me if I’m wrong, is that you want the deal to end with both people, happy, satisfied, feeling like it was a good transactions that have one person feeling like they won.

Chris Voss: [00:13:47] Well, I’m going to want you to feel like you won because we, I’m going for a long term relationship. I’m going to want you to continue to deal with me happily, not because you’re forced to. I mean, you’re going to continue to make deals with me if you feel like you want to. And you’re going to want me to benefit. If you feel like you’re winning and want me to benefit, you’re going to love this. You’re gonna want this to keep going. So the last thing I want is for you to feel like you lost because then you’re going to pay me back. I mean, profit comes from implementation. Profit doesn’t come from agreement. Success comes from implementation. Success doesn’t come from agreement. You gotta agree. Then you got to implement. And if you feel like you lost, your implementation is going to be bad.

Josh Fonger: [00:14:33] So ultimately, the rules of karma. So if you kind of screw um a little bit in the deal, it’s going to come back eventually. So you have to make sure they feel like they came out on top.

Chris Voss: [00:14:45] Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, and there are a lot of people out there that say, you know, the best negotiations are when both sides are a little unhappy. I mean, are the best marriages when both sides are unhappy? I don’t think so.

Josh Fonger: [00:15:00] Okay, that’s a great way to put it. And it definitely requires a lot of, I guess, emotional intelligence and the one doing negotiation so that they can feel comfortable, they can feel comfortable and confident, even if the person that they’re going to go to nations with feels like they won and that they’re OK with that long term.

Chris Voss: [00:15:18] Yeah. And, you know, emotional intelligence. I mean, it’s a ridiculously easy thing to build. I mean, we’ve all we’ve got. We’ve all got this incredible capacity for it. First of all, everybody was born with the seeds of it. And the distinction between EQ and IQ, if you will. You know, IQ How how actually smart you are, you know, how quickly you can solve that Rubik’s Cube, so to speak. Your IQ is limited. It’s just like your height. No matter how many exercises you do, you cannot get any taller than you’re gonna be. You can’t get any smarter than you’re gonna be in. EQ On the other hand, is pretty much unlimited. All you are, all you’re gonna do is practice and you can build the neural synaptic connections and you get really good at it. You get really good at it really quickly if you just put in the time.

Josh Fonger: [00:16:05] So what about this science that’s going to reviewing your book a little bit somewhere? There are talks about this idea of getting them to say no instead of getting them to say yes. There’s better things. How does that work in a negotiation?

Chris Voss: [00:16:17] I mean, that’s one of the easiest, most insane tricks. You know, first first issues to be aware of how much work. Yes, it is. I mean, history kinds of yes, it’s commitment, confirmation and counterfeit. And people are ridiculously good at given a counterfeit Yes. You know, maybe they’re pumping you for information. Maybe they just don’t want to let you down. I mean, a counterfeit Yes is 90 percent of the Yes that are out there. So. And then also, if you say yes to me, you’re going to you’re going to wonder about what are you like yourself? You know, I say to you, it’s Friday, right, you’re going to go. All right. So there’s a reason he’s asking me that. I say yes. What part of my being walked down? Right. Maybe there’s something about Friday I forgot. Maybe I made a promise about Friday or maybe I’m supposed to be, you know something? But that confirmation, yes, always makes this hesitant. And you’re your guards going up because you’ve been you’ve been cheated too many times. You know, some somebody went somewhere when you were a teenager, when you were in your early 20s. You got laid down that path one time too many and now your guard is up. You’re Yes, Bad. Now is as common as that is. It’s stupid, the flip side is true. You know, instead of sand. Do you agree? I’ll say, do you disagree? If I lay out a proposition for you, instead of saying, does this look like something that would work for you? I say, is this a bad idea? Are you against doing this? Now, the real key there is. If you say no, you figure now you can continue to answer with no commitment. Like if I lay a proposition out to you and I say, does this look like something that would work for you? My intention may be. First of all, I’m just trying to politely, respectfully. Confirm that some aspect works for you, and I’m hoping that the parts that don’t you’ll tell me I need that following information on your and your problem is you feel like if you say yes to any of it, you’re now committed. And every single yes that you say. I mean, the momentum selling they call these tie downs, you’re going to feel tied down. You’re going to feel cornered. You’re going to feel trapped. You don’t want to go there. I mean, this is all bad. But if I say you get us doing this, just say, no, I’m not against doing it, but hear what my problems are and you’ll lay that stuff out for me because you can answer because you said no and you don’t feel like you’re making any commitment. And that’s the crazy thing about. Flipping from one paradigm to the other, I mean, people are much more comfortable giving you information after they’ve said no. Because they don’t feel obligated to. Once they’ve given me information and much more, their autonomy has been respected.

Josh Fonger: [00:19:07] That’s a very subtle shift, but I can see how that would be tough. So what is it like when you when you hire someone, you bring someone need your team and they’ve already read your material and they’ve already study your stuff. Are they. Are they easy to negotiate with or do they know exactly what you’re doing?

Chris Voss: [00:19:20] Well, our negotiation process, when we use this on each other all the time. It’s not that you’re a great negotiator, it’s what you’re trying to get out of the other side. So we believe we’re on the same team. We we want to cut down our communication time. We want. We want to get to the point as quick as we can. And, you know, in the intro, we used to say that we saw a business negotiation problem. What we really do is we accelerate outcomes. And so we use this stuff on each other all the time because we’re trying to get to the best outcome possible as soon as we can. And we can’t get there unless we understand each other. So it’s the exchange of understanding and not assuming we stay. You’ve got comp. You’ve got to confirm, you got to lay stuff out for the other set. You’ve got to find out what they’re against and what they disagree.

Josh Fonger: [00:20:08] Now.

Chris Voss: [00:20:09] I was going to say I get people that are trying to cheat me using this stuff on me all the time. And I smell that right away. And we just I just terminate the negotiations. I mean, I can tell where you’re coming from really fast that if you’re using my stuff on me to try to cheat me, to make me lose, we’re just not going to make a deal to stop talking to you.

Josh Fonger: [00:20:31] So that brings me to another one of your techniques and read about, which is this idea of a mirroring. So like if I start mirroring you on this and this call, would you pick that out? Is that a good technique to use?

Chris Voss: [00:20:43] I think mirroring is a great technique. And the people in my company use it only all the time. And it’s actually very helpful because if you’re mirroring me appropriately, you will mirror me on stuff that you want to learn more about. And I want you to learn that. I mean, that’s why I’m talking in the first place. Let’s get some clarification. So it’s yet again, it’s really why it’s being used on me. Not that it’s being used on me.

Josh Fonger: [00:21:10] So how did these techniques work in personal life? So if spouse, kids, all the same rules apply in terms of these these techniques, you walk them through?

Chris Voss: [00:21:20] Well, we hope we’re held more accountable for our actions. The closer we are to somebody. So these techniques work. But, you know, you got to walk the talk. I mean, this is how to talk the talk of great collaboration. And you got to turn around. You got to walk the talk as well. I mean, if you’re if you’re in you’re in a conversation with your spouse and you’re demonstrating, understanding what your actions need to follow up with. I mean, you got more leeway in a business deal because, you know, you’re not going to sleep and waking up with as quickly with a business partner, although it’s going to come pretty quick. So, you know, you better walk the talk and your business deals will also just sit. You know, the closer somebody is to you, the more quickly they’re going to get feedback as to whether or not you are full of nonsense or whether you’re going to you’re going to walk the talk.

Josh Fonger: [00:22:12] So you actually have to be honest along the way because eventually there and find out where your family you’ll find out much quicker. OK. Now, that makes sense. So with with business deals, you mentioned walking away. Are there some kind of telltale signs where, you know, if you’re trying to do a deal and you say, you know what? I know this is going to go bad. So I should just walk away? What are some of those triggers?

Chris Voss: [00:22:36] So somebody starts making their deal look really sexy to me before we’ve even spoken. What their telling. What they’re trying to tell me is the intrinsic value of doing this is so great that we don’t gotta pay ya. I mean, I got I got an approach for a keynote recently and the e-mail said, how would you like to come teach negotiation for two billion dollar hedge fund? And I’m like, are you trying to build the case that this is so enormously valuable that I’ll do it for free? And sure enough, that that was the case. I mean, it came back at me with a lowball offer like stupid low. And then they started using my stuff on me and I’m like, no, I just stopped talking. I mean, because if you’re showing me that my communication to use a waste of time, I’m going to stop wasting my time. OK. I was going to cut it off. And a fair amount of people want to. I thought we were negotiating, and negotiation been over for a while. I’m not if you’re not going to listen to me, then why should I tell you that it’s over? Because what you’re going to do is say, no, it’s not, and you’re gonna keep talking. So since you’re going to keep talking and not listen to me anyway, I’m just going to stop stop responding. And that’s the first problem. Are you trying to get me to do it for nothing? Second problem, which is a more common problem for all business people, is people looking for free consulting or they’re just simply looking for a competing bid. There’s a book, a sales book out now called A Challenge or Sale. The challengers said it’s been out for a few years. They’ve actually got a statistic that says that 20 percent of all business opportunities are fake opportunities. They’re competing bids or looking for free consulting. And they did a survey and they asked business people, basically, how often do you lie to somebody about whether or not you to do business? And they came up with a figure 20 percent of that number has to be low because people are not going to exaggerate how much they lie. If they do anything, they’re going to minimize how much they lie. So there are a lot of fake up opportunities out there, a lot. And sniffing those out real really quick or are critical because again, we just we terminate the conversation. You know, sales people have a phrase it’s not a sin to not get the deal. It’s a sin to take a long time to, not get the deal. And we don’t want to take a long time to not get the deal.

Josh Fonger: [00:25:04] So, you know, read it right away. They’re trying to get you to come down your offer and you just stay here and say, no. You just say just don’t even say anything because they’re not listening. That’s interesting.

Chris Voss: [00:25:14] Well, yeah. Or I’ll say, look, I don’t think we can help you right now. I love to be a part of your success for your future. And if you get into a position where we really can help you contact that shift and be the end of the conversation. Now, if they’re intentionally using me for a competing bid, that’s a victimization move on their side and they’ll have a tendency to get a little bit more angry with. And and that’s just backup that you’re trying to cheat. I mean, we were on a phone call with the company the day that they failed our test questions and in a very short period of time and they said, look, can you send this request for proposal on how you outline your training? My response to them was, you’re asking me for proprietary information. And happy to share that with you as soon as we have mutual commitments to work together. And they said, well, oh, you know, we’re just gathering information right now, so we’re not going to make a commitment to work with you. But could you send us your RFP anyway? I said, no, we don’t do that. I just told you that it’s proprietor and I ended up hanging up him.

Josh Fonger: [00:26:29] I think it’s great for us entrepreneurs to hear that is some knowing that there’s a large percentage of bad deals out there and just save yourself the time. I know with my consulting I’m actually gonna fly out somewhere. I don’t bother doing any planning in terms of how the implementation is gonna go until there’s money exchanged. There’s no point even starting to build out a plan. If you’re not willing to pay something for the plan.

Chris Voss: [00:26:53] Right. Exactly. Yeah. I mean and a lot of that is on this is presuppose that you deliver what you do. You know that you actually over deliver. In my company, we actually over deliver so very much like you. No, but nothing gets put on the calendar for any sort of business relationship until we’ve received money. Now we can do that because we’re gonna deliver. Now, if we didn’t deliver, then we’d be caught up in lawsuits for taking money and then and then backing out of deals. We don’t do that. So I have I have no compunction whatsoever. No hesitation to say what you want. The business was set a deposit. Because once you do, we are going to knock ourselves out to make that money the cheapest money you ever spent.

Josh Fonger: [00:27:38] So what about, just to change gears a little bit? This is kind of a curious question for me. Negotiation in 2019 and beyond. Instead of just being face to face or on the phone, now we have a video call like this, we have emails we got text messages, social media, there’s always other competing ways to communicate. Does that change how negotiation happens? I mean, maybe you’re going to negotiate over email compared to face to face compared to phone. Do you have to change your approach? Or is it just a lag between correspondence?

Chris Voss: [00:28:11] If you have a full appreciation for the limitations of each one and basically negotiate with them the way you want to be negotiated with. And what do I mean by that? There is a person on a planet that likes to read a long e-mail, and yet almost everybody sent them. You know, you don’t want someone to negotiate an entire deal with you in one e-mail or lay out an entire value proposition and do it all in one e-mail. And you probably won’t even look at that e-mail. Ninety nine percent of people will turn right around and write an email that they would never read. And that’s where people really get into trouble. I mean, you hate getting complicated text message. You want to send a text message that has two paragraphs. I mean, if don’t do to other people where you hate, I’ve done for you. Now, if you don’t mind reading shorter e-mails. You don’t mind reading concise text message shows do the same thing. You know, you got a small point to get across. Put it in an e-mail in an under a circumstance where you want somebody to call you on a phone and get a feel for their voice. Give the other person that same consideration. I mean, basically, how are you spinning your wheels or how do people spend their wheels with you? Stop doing it.

Josh Fonger: [00:29:27] Well, I have a technique that I learned from Sam, my business partner, which you might already know, but something that we love to do. It’s called EBM or email to voicemail. So whenever someone sent us a long email, we will just plug our phone or just record a two, three, four minute message with all the nuance, all the things we’re considering and we’ll send them that over email. And so don’t get a voice response instead of an email response. So whenever I get along email, I never respond. I always give a voice response back. It takes two minutes and I can go through all that complexity and I can hear my tone in my intensity without having to, weed, way though a long email.

Chris Voss: [00:30:04] Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that’s a great idea. I mean that should be a supplemental skill as well. But yeah, you conveyed how you would be able to otherwise convey. Plus information is hitting our brain in a different way.

Josh Fonger: [00:30:18] Mm hmm.

Chris Voss: [00:30:19] By and large, everybody looks at screens too much. I mean, by the end of the day, almost everybody’s got eyes strain. Eye strain from looking at a backlit screen. That’s too much. It’s one of the reasons why all the books that I read are our actual paper books, because it hits the eye differently. So if you send somebody a voicemail that answers their email. Now the information’s running in through another circuit in their brain and that hasn’t been exercised that much that day, which means it’s got a greater capacity. They have more capacity to listen at the end of the day than they have to read because they’ve been reading all day. So there’s a variety of reasons why that’s a great supplemental skill.

Josh Fonger: [00:31:02] Interesting. Well, I don’t want take you take too much more time, but I’ve got just a couple more questions, then we’ll we’ll sign off. I know you’ve got a busy day. Last one I want to do is OK. What’s one thing that I have not asked you that I really should have asked you? Knowing that we’ve got entrepreneurs in the call and they’re probably doing all sorts of mistakes with their negotiations. What’s kind of a big thought you want to make sure they are aware of?

Chris Voss: [00:31:22] The biggest thing is let the other side go first. I mean, here the other side out, you’re going to you’re going to accelerate your deals with that move by itself. You didn’t even have to be good at here on now. You will get good once you start letting people once you start giving other people a chance to be to give you their case. You’ll be surprised at how quickly you will get good at confirming with them that you know where they’re coming from. But you’re going to save a massive amount of time just by star because they’re dying to tell you anyway. And they’re not going to come to an agreement with you and tell they’ve told you whether. your agreement is going to be horrible. So that’s one of the things it really accelerates skill. Let the other side go first.

Josh Fonger: [00:32:08] Good. Love that simple, simple, easy to use. Well, Chris, I want to say thanks for being on the show. Really learn a lot. This is really useful. Hopefully is useful. Everybody listening. I’m sure it was. Where can people find out more about what you do when your group does?

Chris Voss: [00:32:21] The gateway to everything we have is our newsletter. It’s complimentary. Good price. Free. If it’s free, I’ll take three. Right. That was an old friend of mine loved to say that. So it is short and sweet. More importantly, the newsletter comes to your e-mail Tuesday mornings. It’s a short article, 800 words or less, which usually about a page, page and a half. You can read it, digest it quickly. Actionable, specific steps. Plus of those letters, a gateway to the Web site, training announcements, everything. We’ve got a video negotiating course that is coming up later this year. Very in-depth status announcements on that. It’s coming out through the newsletter. So the best way to subscribe for the newsletter is a text to sign up function. The name of the newsletter is the Ed. That’s not how you sign up. You send a text message to the number twenty two, eight twenty eight. That number, again, that you’re texting to is 2 2 8 2 8. The message you send is FBI empathy. All one word. Don’t let your spellcheck put a space between FBI and empathy. That’ll screw up the message. It’s got to be all one word. FBI empathy. No space. Lower case to the number 2`2 8 2 8. You if you execute that properly, you get a response back asking for your e-mail. You sign that said simple.

Josh Fonger: [00:33:42] Ok, so 2 2 8 2 8 FBI empathy, all lowercase, all one word. And I’m going to do that. I’m looking forward to reading, reading your working. Learn how to be a better negotiator if not a business. At least with my wife and kids. That’ll be important. I live with them so.\.

Chris Voss: [00:34:00] They’ll be happier. And consequently, so will you.

Josh Fonger: [00:34:04] Yeah, well, that does good. Win. Win. I like that. Well, Chris, what again? It was. Thanks and thanks, somebody, for tuning in to the podcast today. Tune in next week. We’ll be sharing with you another business expert like Chris or when my past clients share with you the steps techniques so you can make more and work less in your business. Before I sign off today, let you know that we are giving away a copy of Sam’s book. Going to mail that out to you. We’re maybe not one a week to the winner. So if you want to be in the drawing for this week, make sure it leaves review on whatever platform you’re listening or watching this podcast, leave a review. Take a screen shot and send it info at work the system dot com and maybe you’ll be lucky one of the week. And if you want to learn more about making more, working less, using the work, this method certainly go to work the system dot com. And there you can find the book for free. And a lot of business resources. Thanks again everybody

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