Josh Fonger : (00:25-00:57) : Welcome to the work the system podcast, where we help entrepreneurs make more and work less using systems. And I'm your host, Josh Fonger. And today we have special guests. We've got Tom Lindsay and Steve Rigby. And Tom and Steve both work at Pure Health, which offers an amazing program for entrepreneurs and small business owners. They want to offer affordable health care option for themselves and their employers. And, you know, they have a really deep background introduction. Somebody let them both really explain what they offer and how they help small businesses. So,without further ado, welcome, Tom. Steve.

 

Tom: (00:58-03:32) : Hey, thanks. Thanks for having us Josh and hello Facebook world. So I've been in the the professional employer organization, industry or PPO industry for the last 26 years. My entire career basically, which is where we take over the payroll, HR, employee benefits and work comp and workplace safety for small midsize companies. That's ever since I fell off the turnip truck, that's what I've been doing now about three years ago though, I sold my shares and resigned from the company that co-founded back in 2004 and went over crossed over to the dark side to do sales for the company that had co-founded. And that's when I met up with Steve and and got on. And we subsequently started pure health. But the reason pure health came into existence in the first place is because when I left, I lost my health insurance. And really, after I took a big pay cut leaving and I couldn't afford the COBRA premium and I went out to the marketplace to look for alternatives and found nothing affordable, nothing of any value. And I was really frustrated and actually went uninsured for a little while, which was really scary. And then I was underinsured for a little while to which was not so scary, but still scary. And then I found Steve. Actually, Steve and John introduced me to a medical cost sharing arrangement called Sedera, which is a non-insurance alternative. And although, you know, I'm an insurance guy right? My entire career and my chartered property casualty underwriter, a broker. So, any time someone says, you know, non-insurance and health care at the same time, I'm like, you know, my antennas go up. And they did. But after some significant due diligence and research and, you know, meeting with the company and just really digging in, I was absolutely amazed. And I just I fell in love. And so, we started pure health so that we could bring this same solution to, you know, self-employed entrepreneurs, freelancers, small business owners. And so, I have Steve to thank for that, so publicly. Thank you. Thank you, Steve.

 

Josh Fonger: (03:33-03:43): Then how did you get into this health share plan you're doing now?

 

Steve: (03:44-06:10) : So as Tom mentioned, that, you know, his background, his professional employer PPO organization. Well, my background to a certain extent is there as well. And through that, we work with a lot of small and medium sized companies. And the one thing that everybody would always ask us was, can you find me an affordable health care offering for me and my employees? And that's the same question we got time and time again. And, you know, we were frustrated with the traditional offerings that everyone normally experiences, the high deductible health care products that are available in the market today. Most health care offerings have a four, five, six thousand dollar deductible before the benefit even kicks in. And I mean, if you think about it, how usable really is that? You know, as far as insurance, it's not very usable, right? So we kind of went looking for alternatives. And we actually by accident, we're introduced to Sedera and were very, very excited about what it brought to the table. And through our due diligence, we just decided that we loved it and wanted to offer it both. Tom and I, are both members of Sedera. I actually have a story that it's very very personal in nature that kind of draws a comparison between more traditional offerings. And Sedera had to have my knee operated on. And I was with one of the large insurance carriers at the time. And my doctor said, Steve, you've got a lot of damage here. You need to go in. And at minimum, we need to clean it up the best we can. At maximum, we need to replace your knee, but your insurance company won't let me do that. They're going to force a treatment protocol on us, meaning me and the doctor. That was 10 months of cortisone injections and lubrication injections. And my doctor flat out said, Steve is not going to help you need surgery. The bottom line was I had to postpone the surgery. I ultimately got it. But it cost me a lot of money out of pocket. And with Sedera I could had that surgery done immediately by the doctor that I wanted. Not worried about, you know, telling me who I had to go to or what I had to do. And it would have cost me five hundred dollars instead of five or six thousand dollars. So the difference is very significant. And that really solidified it in my mind that it was something that we needed to bring to our customers and to anybody else who's struggling with the cost of health care, America today.

 

Josh Fonger: (06:11-07:12) And you and both of you guys were talking before the show and those kind of funny because I like I told you, I do a medical cost sharing program as well, have last 10 years. And it's definitely saved us a ton of time and tons of money, a ton of grief. And like you just mentioned, that key thing is that you have the freedom to choose and so do your employees in this case. What kind of what doctor you want to go to, what treatment you want. And you don't need to just follow the plan and stay within the parameters of somebody telling you that you have to do it this way to get things approved. You can just go right to the place you need. So what is the you know, for people who have never heard of health care or health cost shape savings plans? Are they legal? I mean, are they illegal? Because I know that they are long health care is this change in America recently. And then, first and then next. How do you educate the public on something where they're just used to doing health insurance? They've never, ever even considered switching.

 

Tom: (07:13-08:13) Yeah, they're definitely legal. They are not, however, a replacement for minimum essential coverage or minimum value coverage under the ACA. So an employer who has 50 or more full time equivalent to employees and is subject to the Affordable Care Act, offering a health care or medical cost sharing arrangement is not a replacement for ACA complaints. One caveat, though. Religious Health Share some religious held shares do comply with minimum essential coverage. As an individual, but since the mandate went away and there's no tax penalty associated with not having minimum essential coverage as an individual, you don't have to worry about that anymore. That legal yes. Compliant with ACA? No. But not being compliant with the ACA is not illegal.

 

Josh Fonger: (08:14-09:10) Okay. Very nuanced. OK, so you can do it and there's no fee. There's no penalty for doing it. (Correct). OK, interesting. So then what? I mean, I've got to imagine that your big hurdle is just educating the public. So publics here listening and watching. How do you convince them? I had a competition with one my clients and she is of the same faith I am as religious. And so for her. The competition had to do with health sharing and she was paying something like $1800 a month in health insurance. And no one in her family had made any claims like five years. And I was like, you probably should switch plans. And she's like, no, I can't. The plan I've always been on the same plan. Gotta be health insurance and gotta be health insurance. And it's just in her mind, she thought, if I don't have insurance. Am a bad citizen or a bad person, I just can't get beyond that. So how do you get people beyond that? I thought they just felt they have to have it.

 

Steve: (09:11-11:06) Great question. If I could jump in, Tom. So one of the things that we always tell people is that this is different. It's unique. You may not have been exposed to it. And then the last thing we always say is and it may not be for you. Right? And there's reasons why it may or may not be for any particular individual. You hit the nail on the head a minute ago by saying, you know, the cost. We just had an individual, 54 year old male family of five that was on our traditional plan, insurance plan.

High deductible, $5000 deductible. He was paying 1989 dollars a month for that plan for a family of five. He just couldn't afford it any longer and decided that medical cost trade was something that he needed to explore. We educated him and at the end of the day, he moved over. And the cost of the medical cost sharing program for him and his family is 820 dollars. So 1989 versus 820. Meaning he's saving, you know, twelve thousand bucks a year just in the monthly expense, never mind the reduced, you know, not having the high deductible other out-of-pocket expenses that he experiencing. So it is different and it requires you to sort of get your head and your arms wrapped around it. Once you understand that and experience it, really it's there's no comparison. It provides such great value, such high quality service. As you mentioned earlier, there's no network that you have to be concerned about. There's nothing in between you and your doctor. In my case, with my knee, I had an insurance company making decisions on behalf of me and my doctor that were not in my best interest. Right. Well, with Sedera and the medical cost sharing approach, there is nobody getting in between you and your doctor. You are collectively making that decision. That's right for you and your health.

 

Tom : (11:07-12:18) So but it is a mind shift. And I think one of the ways you can help people get over that, too, is to say help them separate insurance from health care. Right. You know, health insurance companies don't provide health care. They provide a means to pay for. So it's just one way to pay for health care. There are other ways health sharing, medical cost sharing is another way for paying for it. And it's often the best way and at least expensive way for most people versus insurance, because there is so much built into that premium that makes it more expensive than it needs to be. Right. You have all of the administrative expenses associated with regulatory compliance, just handling, you know, issuing a policy, administering the policy, you know, negotiating networks. There's a whole bunch going on a busy world and it seems that you're paying for in that premium that doesn't exist over on the health share side. So you can pay all those salaries and pay the shareholders profits. Or you can. Use it towards medical expenses.

 

Josh Fonger : (12:19-13:32). I think what helped me get my mind around it was I used to work as a real estate developer for helping develop Walgreens. Those Walgreens pharmacies. Right? And so when you when you're developing any kind of building, they require all these different insurances because the figure that you're going to have some kind of insurance claim. Well, you're building the building or after buildings open and all these municipalities required and belongings, they said, no, we're self-insured. So instead of paying insurance and every single project they're doing on the construction, on everything, they said, no, we have money in the bank. We're not getting insurance. If we get a million our claim, we'll pay the million dollar claim. We're not like there is no way. We don't actually have any insurance because we don't need the insurance. (Right). We have enough money to cover the problem. And I thought that was very interesting. Like the car, you don't actually need it. That's what got me into thinking about health care as well is, you know, actually, if something goes wrong, what would be how catastrophic with the problem have to be for me to I really need insurance. And if that thing really did happen, what I just build pay out of pocket for anyways or be on a payment plan to pay it off?

 

Tom: (13:33-14:26) Well, that's I mean, that's a great way to look at it. Right. I mean, insurance is if you're just transferring the risk to someone else. So the question is, how much risk are you willing and able to take in? And, you know, in this case, you're not transferring the risk because nobody's obligated to pay for your medical expenses but it’s a long interior arrangement between a group of minded people and you guys altogether and “Hey we gonna help each other sharing those expenses, right?”. And I think that, you know people are open to that and you know there’s kind of this, our culture is kind of giving and caring you know culture take care of people and that’s what medical cost sharing is all about.

 

Josh Fonger : (14:27-14:48) So what I still walk it through, just so, people can see in practical sense so, I break my leg, I go to the ER it’s bad break car accident, it is. Gotta solve right away and bill 5,000 bucks, I don’t know,  what happens with a health care plan compare to insurance?

Steve: (14:49-17:17) Tom, I'll take it if you don't mind. So in a traditional insurance situation, you break your leg, you go to the hospital, they're going to ask you for an insurance card. You'll end up paying a deductible at that time or a portion of the deductible at that time. And you'll get ultimately get your bill, the insurance company, and you will get what they call a balance bill. Your insurance will not cover the entire cost of that of that medical treatment and you'll end up paying some amount of it. Right. If you have a high deductible, you're going to pay probably most of it, was Sedera  a little bit different. The medical cost sharing option, everything revolves around what they refer to as a medical need and a medical need. If you use a broken leg scenario, let's say you fall down the stairs and you break your leg, your mobile. Somebody calls an ambulance, they take you to the hospital, they X-ray you the MRI. They ultimately perform surgery. You've got physical therapy. Everything pertaining to that medical situation is referred to as a medical need and is subject to what Sedera calls an initial unshareable amount. So when you become a member, you determine Tom talked about how much risk do you want? You determine how much of an initial insurable amount do you want to sign up for? $500 dollars is the most common one and the lowest one, and it can go up from there. So under that scenario, you would have the hospital bill, you and you would be responsible for $ 500 all the bills above that are shareable with the or medical community for as long as it takes for you to be free and clear of that situation. So if you think about it, let's say he was very, very serious and you were in physical therapy for two years. That whole two year period, all the medical bills pertaining to that need would be submitted to the community and shared with the community in an insurance world. When the calendar year ticks over, you've got your your deductible has reset. So if you've got $5000 deductible, it's going to start all over again. And all that physical therapy you're going to be paying for. Right. From dollar one again. Right. So that's one of the beautiful things about the medical cost sharing community with severe is that it goes through as long as it takes until that medical situation. You have been free and clear of all treatment and any costs associated with that.

 

Josh Fonger: (17:18-17:37) So the other question I think that people have is just that the fear of what if I get some kind of horrible cancer, it's going to cost like two million dollars to solve my problem. You know, Will Sedera out really last that long or do they cap out at a hundred thousand and say, good luck?

 

Steve: (17:38-19:30) : Yeah, great question, and everybody, it frequently comes up. You know, there's this is how it works. So Tom mentioned it earlier. What we have here is a community of like-minded people that are voluntarily sharing the expenses of the community. And also there does is administer the payment of those of those medical expenses. Right. The money basically is being held by the entire community. And what they do is, is that every month they put a good amount of that money aside into a major medical fund to pay to protect against things like a series of cancer. The reality is it's very well-managed. There is an aspect of it that helps control the cost and that is the medical bill negotiation part of it. Sedera has a sister company that all they do is they renegotiate medical bills. Let me give you a real example. They had a member that delivered a premature baby and the baby was spend some time in the neonatal intensive care unit. And ultimately the family was presented with a bill for $200,00 for that state. They submitted that bill to Sedera. Sedera kicked in their medical negotiation group. They negotiated that bill from two hundred thousand down to forty thousand. And then they paid the member$39,500. And then the member paid that $40,000 dollars to the hospital. So it's a very, very. It's very slick the way the process is established. Well, it works. On average, they're negotiating bills across the board down by more than 50 percent. I just kind of shows you how much additional cost is built into the system. So Tom and I both remember if we have 100 percent confidence in their ability to manage the expenses of the business and to make sure that all bills are paid.

 

Tom: (19:31-20:07) But there is no annual or lifetime limit to how much the community will share. And there is there's a set of guidelines, membership guidelines, right. And those guidelines are what everybody has agreed to follow to and to determine what is shareable and what isn't shareable. So, there's and there are. Like I said, there isn't a annual or lifetime max to sharing.

 

Josh Fonger : (20:08-21:52) Anybody who's watching this. I've got clients who are Dennis and surgeons and podiatrist and optometrists. And they all love patients who are not using traditional insurance pay to pay cash. So they're always happy. Never had someone say, I'm not going to negotiate. I always lower the price when they realize that they don't that deal with pain through going through insurance and doing that. So that's interesting. So the price goes down. You get it paid for. You never pay more than your deductible. Or maybe there's another phraseology used for digital initial insurable amount. As always, legalities. Can't say can't say that were deductible. But I just think it's right. I mean, it really blew my mind when I when I started doing this 10 years ago. And I recommend people all the time, you know, not as sold my plan. I never heard of Sedera until today, but it still is the I think it's the fear of being new and the fear of what. And it's also the shame is. Maybe you guys can speak to this is a very odd total. So when someone says, hey, the health insurers as I know, I know. And they like, oh, we don't have health insurance. What what's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? Yeah. You did it. And I say no, are you not? I don't say. But I am. They are. Their mind can't wrap their head around the fact that like insurance is not health care. Like, I take care of my health. I just. I just buy what I what I need, what I want when I want it, wherever I want. It is true freedom. So, because being healthy has nothing to do with health insurance, actually, health care has nothing to do with taking health insurance is nothing to do with actually taking care of your health.

 

Tom: (21:53-22:07) It's just one way to pay for it. And but there is that stigma totally where I don't have insurance. I am a second class citizen or, you know, I am poor or you're going to think ill of me, you know, what am I what am I in loss going to say? And I find out it is,

 

Josh Fonger: (22:08-22:47) It is the oddest thing. And so I guess I'm coming out of the closet about this right now. A national news here. But it really people have it's very odd. They think that they can't seem to get their brain around it now. I'll run to the math scenarios. I'm sure you run through math scenarios with their folks. And it's like so really, under any circumstance, mathematically, you would save a ton of money, let's say. But I wouldn't have insurance that I'd say. But that's not why you're getting you got to be healthy. Right. And they can't they still can't get their brains around it because they're. Well. Are unwilling to do it like it's. Like, it's like it's illegal to sneak or something. How do you overcome that?

 

Tom: (22:48-24:56) : Yeah, well, it you I mean, it's really a badge of honor. I wear it as a badge of honor. I'm like I said before, I'm an insurance broker. Right. I'm an insurance agent. And I've been in insurance my entire career. Now I've been in a large program insurance. So I understand the concept of self-insurance partially being partially self-insured done that my whole my whole career. So, for me, it's not a foreign concept that I that I would use this alternative method to, you know, handle the exposure associated with getting sick or getting hurt. So but still, you know, there is that stigma. And, you know, when you say, okay, well, the membership, the community is not legally obligated in any way. And where but the insurance company is by virtue of the policy. And so that's what I'm kind of giving up. But the question is, what do I believe in more? And over here on the health insurance side, this is there's a lot of things going on in that world that just don't sit well with. They're not. Right. Right. And this is a different approach, a community approach. I feels much better to me to be a part of this. I'm happy to be a part of a movement that helps to disrupt this massive. You know, conglomeration of companies that have have a stranglehold over health care in America.  And so I might feel more like a, you know, a warrior. Like I said, I wear it with a badge of honor. And, you know, I'll use my insurance experience to say, hey, I'm doing it. I'm comfortable with it. You need to do what you feel comfortable with. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but here's why I do it. And again, you know, I have more expertise and knowledge than the average buyer.

 

Josh Fonger: (24:57-25:22) So let's say let's say let's pretend I'm an employer. I've got five employees and I'm listening to something. You want to do this? What are some of the tough challenges? Would it be one of my employees have pre-existing conditions? Is that some of the problem or they're afraid to switch? Switch over because it's been with the plan for 10 years. And, you know, they're afraid of what's going to drop off or you might lose your chance to see the doctor you used to. Are those usually the problems?

 

Tom: (25:23-26:01) : That's a real deal. And Steve, best to answer that. But just I would say one thing about that is that, you know, the because of. Maybe the one good thing. Dare I say, of the Affordable Care Act is the fact that you can't be denied coverage right at any time. Well, not anytime, but at open enrollment once a year, you can enter the marketplace. The Affordable Care Act marketplace and get coverage no matter what your health situation is. But then I'll let Steve.

 

Steve: (26:02-30:11) Yeah. You asked a great question, Josh, about the you mentioned pre-existing conditions. So there was a number of emotional reasons why somebody might not want to participate in a medical cost chair. There's really only one. I don't want to go so far as to say the logical reason why you wouldn't. But for the most part, the one reason why it really doesn't work for somebody potentially is a preexisting medical condition. And the reason being is that Sedera being not being insurance. There's no underwriting. There is no denying acceptance into the program based on a health history. Everybody can participate. Right. But by doing that, they are not willingly signing up for existing medical conditions. Like if you were diagnosed with cancer on a Monday and decided to sign up for Sedera on Friday. I mean, that just wouldn't be fair to the community. Right. So as a result, the way it works is that if you've been diagnosed, treated or had symptoms of an injury or an illness for the past three years, under the first year of membership with Sedera, any medical bills pertaining to that injury or illness are not sharable with the community in the first year. In the second year, you can share up to fifteen thousand dollars of expenses. In the third year, you can share up to a maximum of 30,000. And then beyond that third year, it's shareable completely like any other medical need would be. It's not it's no longer considered pre-existing. So that's the one thing that we always get, you know, and then it's important to sometimes talk through it because what people think is a preexisting condition and might be a reason why they don't want to participate. In fact, when you do the math on it or if you really work through the scenario, it's OK. I'll give you an example. We had a member was considering leaving a united health care traditional high deductible plan. They were paying a very large amount on a premium for a $5000 deductible. And the person said, you know, my husband had a heart attack 10 years ago and every year, twice a year has to go to a cardiologist where they put him on an EKG. They were run his blood and just make sure that he's fine. So as far as there is concern, that's a preexisting condition because he is still being treated for a medical situation. Right. So in that first year, anything wouldn't you know, he wouldn't be able to share any those expenses in the second year. There are some shareable 30 or shareable and then fourth year, it's completely shareable. So I said to that, I said, well, let's look at it for a second. You know, two times your cardiologist, that's a two hundred dollar visit per maybe two hundred and fifty dollars on the high end. Right. So for five hundred dollars out of pocket, you could pay those visits. You're paying for them now under your traditional plan because you have a $5 marked deductible. So you're already paying that. And let's take a look at the monthly cost savings. I mean, she was saving over $4000 dollars a month in the cost of her premium versus the cost of medical costs. So I said, does it make sense for you to save four thousand, spend five hundred on two doctor visits and to have overall better care, better control? And at the end of the day, she said, yeah, you're right. So they did sign up and everything was fine. Now, having said that, you know, as that person said, my wife has been diagnosed with breast cancer. She's gone for chemotherapy. And that wouldn't be a good scenario for someone to drop a more traditional insurance plan and move over to medical cost sharing. It just it wouldn't make sense for that individual. So that is the one real reason why it may not work for everybody. Like you've hit the nail on the head earlier. There's lots of emotional reasons why you might want to not do it. You know, the stigma of not having an insurance card, being a self-pay patient, not having that that, you know, being able to say I'm insured, there's a whole bunch of emotional reasons why. But really, there's only one logical reason, and that's the preexisting condition.

 

Josh Fonger: (30:12-30:42) And it sounds like you did the math in front of her and she realized it. I think psychologically, people also don't like the idea of having to pay you like the idea of the insurance company paying and. But if you do the math, you're saving $8 a month on your insurance premium by doing this cost saving, cost sharing thing. It ends up being pretty easy to just you just go to the apartment, you just pay because what you save as much money.

 

Steve: (30:43-31:41) What's funny is people say, you know, I don't want to have to pay that. I don't want to pay the doctor. I want the insurance company to do it. It's like, well, you paid a deductible insurance, didn't cover everything. You've got a bill that you had to pay. So, you're paying the doctor whether you like it or not. And in this case, you're paying the doctor for all of it. And that money is coming from the medical cost, your community. So, I mean. It really is. You know, I always use this example to talk about my knee surgery. I didn't tell you. It was about for months afterward, I got a call from the insurance company. And hi, Steve, this is David calling from in this case of UnitedHealthcare. And he didn't say, hey, Steve, how's your knee or a Steve, how are you? It was hey, Steve, I'm looking at your records here and you had your knee operated on. And although your surgeon was in our network and although the surgery center was in our network, the anesthesiologist wasn't in our network. And you owe us fifteen hundred dollars after I had paid.

 

Tom: (31:42-31:45) You forgot to ask the NSC geologist's if he was in your network.

 

Steve: (31:46-32:55) Just when he was about to put me under, I grabbed him by the wrist and said, Hey, are you in the network? You're such. And so. I know it's crazy, right? So under the Sedera situation, let's tell a different story and one that illustrates, I think, a very valuable point. One of their members delivered a baby that had some complications and there was a little dicey for a while. They were very concerned about it. There were some obvious medical expenses related to it. And she got on the phone with Sedera member services in the very first question that they asked was, how's the baby? How are you? How is the baby? Right. She was kind of blown away by that. And she was so blown away by the entire experience of how Sedera facilitated the payment of the bills, how caring and compassionate they were, that when it came time for her to go back to work, she actually called Sedera and said, I am so blown away by you guys. I want to come work for you. And she got she was hired by them. She's been with them for about three years now. And to me, that illustrates exactly how amazing the community is. How amazing the company.

 

Tom: (32:56-34:59) I’ts a huge point, a differential between two scenarios right? Insurance, we are not really in customer service business, you don’t really get customer service, never had a conversation with a health insurance company that I enjoyed. Whereas, the flipside on Sedera, these people, where not generation gazillion dollars or shareholder return to you know, deny anything. There to help you get the highest quality healthcare at the lowest possible cost and they truly actually care and I mean it’s a culture right? If it's, they have that it's baked into to, to the company and to who they are. And it's like having a medical, you know, concierge, right. Someone to walk your hand through. The, what can be a very confusing, process of receiving medical treatment. Right? And, you know, we, we've kind of come to this point where, because of insurance and it's like somebody else's problem and we just show up and, you know, and then they'll tell us later how much we owe.  And, you know, sometimes we'll get a bunch of stuff in the mail and it'll, you know, eventually, you know, we'll end up paying a bunch and then, but it's, it's, it's kind of like somebody else's problem, right? They've kinda convinced us that, that, you know, we don't have much control over it or much to do with it. We just go get the treatment. They take care of everything else where, whereas on with medical cost sharing, it's more empowering and, you know, you, you now approach it from the perspective of, you know, it's, it's me and the rest of my friends in this community and, you know, we're here, helping each other out. And, Sedera is, you know, they know them, they know the system, the processes, they know where to get care. They know who delivers the best care and they walk you through.

Josh Fonger : (35:00-36:34) Yep. Yeah. We can talk about this for a long time. This is something that I have a lot of interesting cause I work with a lot of doctors and they will look at someone's insurance and they will say, well, based on your insurance, here is the plan. You should do not, here's the plan you should do because it's the best for your health. And, that definitely clouds both the people getting the care and the doctors by having this third party in the middle screwing up what is actually supposed to be, you know, what's in best interest for you. That definitely scares it up. And then also tell them, you said members are going to care for each because they don't want to run up the cost of their own program. So they're actually going to get what they need. It's supposed to, when insurance, you're like, Oh, insurance cover, well they're gonna cover this, this, this, this. I'm going to use all those things that hit my deductible. I must've just, you know, get all sorts of tests. And the sooner I hit it, the better. Right. It's like, yeah, I can. I do. And I had a statistics professor in my MBA program and he, he said that that was the biggest drain on society. He said that his wife had a bunch of cancer issues and he said that whenever he would go to the hospital and say, Oh my Chester's, my arm hurts, my leg hurts and would get, you know, just all sorts of tests because he said he had his deductible so soon that he'd just blow out all the tests he could because he knew they're all, you know, essentially free. And he said there's no cap to it. No one stops him. And , he said that it's, it's kind a ridiculous because it's, people don't see it as their money because it's the big bad insurance company. , and it's, it associates them from actually paying for their health, , cause they don't understand what, yeah,

Tom: (36:35-37:06) And you, you don't, you know, you're, they're not, you're paying for it. Right. You are paying for it and everybody else because of the premiums that go, the insurance company's not going to not make money. Does that make sense? They're going to make money and, and you're going to pay for the cost of care, period. All of it. Cause they're going to charge premiums sufficient enough to cover all their costs and make a bundle. So you're only fooling yourself.

Josh Fonger: (37:07-37:13) :It's just math. Well, I know we're going a little overtime here. What's one question? I didn't ask you their view, but I probably should have that you want to leave the audience with.

 

Tom: (37:14-37:18) Did you ask Steve how old he was?

 

Steve: (37:19-37:28) They don't need to know that. I think we pretty much covered most of it.  Tom do you have something?

Tom: (37:29-37:32) Yeah. No, I, I mean I, I think that's,

Josh Fonger: (37:33-37:39) Well then where can people find you? So yeah. So what, , where should they go if they want to find out more and do some little research, their own healthcare programs?

Tom: (37:40-38:44) Well, you can go to, got, got, that's got pure health.com and you can also find us on LinkedIn and on Facebook. So those are good places to go as well. , but got pure health.com would be the first stop, and there you can,  you can schedule an appointment with us if you want to talk about it. , you can RF, you can also , get a free copy of part two of Dr. Josh Luke's book called health wealth for you, which talks about ways to become, , an engaged healthcare consumer and , you can also watch a webinar that goes more in depth about what or who you had been talking about. And again, from there you can schedule an appointment with us. You can read the member guidelines, see the rates of the, membership fees. Sorry and read some FAQs. All kinds of fun stuff.

Josh Fonger : (38:45-40:04) Sounds like a great time. But you know, healthcare is important. So everyone watching this, whether the recording or live good, who got pure health.com, if you're curious about exploring, , you know what I've done for years, kind of the secret way, a little hack to , improve your health, make better smart choices and save money and be a part of the community. We're actually helps show. So it's kind of a win, win, win. So I'm all for the system. (You've been working the system friend,) you know, I decided that while ago just to not even try to be normal, just, you know, being right is different than being normal, I guess. I would say, so anyway, it's, yeah, I got to go to, got pure health.com. Check the check that these guys work, and who knows, maybe esoteric could be right for you and your team and your employees.  And also, hose of you watching this live or the recording, do you want a copy of Sam carpenter's book right there behind me? Work the system. You can leave a review of this podcast or any podcasts and then send a picture of that review to info at work, the system.com we drawn a name out of a hat each week and sending out a copy to one lucky winner of the week. Otherwise stay tuned. Next week I'll have another guests like Tom and Steve or my previous clients or another business expert who's going to share with you how to improve your business so you can make more and work less. We'll see you next week.